Am 21.12.21 um 11:06 schrieb Denis Maier via ntg-context:

Thanks for bringing this topic up again. I'd also be highly interested in this!

Me too as a publisher in the humanities and evangelist for ConTeXt ;) I raised the subject at previous context meetings, but the requirements for criticial editions differ so much that it’s hard to tell what is really needed. So it’s good that Jürgen came up with his requirements and solution attempts. I remember several interesting talks about big edition projects at DANTE conferences and online, also of course Massi’s MEO project, and since I also typeset a German literature magazin called “Kritische Ausgabe” I always wanted to publish a book on the subject of big editions from the editorial and technical view... Hraban

On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present

so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to educate myself I found this page https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html and thought about how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code. If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere? The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied? — Bruce Horrocks Hampshire, UK

I remember some discussions years ago with Pablo Rodriguez on this topic, and I have some previous discussions with a reledmac LaTeX French expert, about critical edition in the Medieval and/or Latin/Ancient Greek studies … Maybe Pablo has preserved some CTX samples ? I need to dig in my ‘archeological’ ConTeXt MWE ! But here is what would be clever to achieve with Context/Luame tatex (see attached files)

Le 3 janv. 2022 à 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :

Dear Bruce and Hans,

thanks for you responses and I apologize for the lengthy post, which is just to give you an impression of the current practice in my field (Sanskrit Studies, Indology).

For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now reledmac) have become the standard for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions were and are:

- footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible - automatic reference to linenumbers - or: manual references to verse numbers - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

In the last years new requirements have been added:

- some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce online editions - data have to be made available in TEI xml format

This is where a new (LuaTeX) package called ekdosis, currently being developed by Robert Alessi, comes in. It produces a printed version and in the same TeX run an xml file. In an ongoing editorial project we are using this method and it works very well. While the system is ingenious and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks. I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue. We also do not have the resources for the long-term care for data such as online editions, but this is another problem.

In a previous project, a large edition (30000 verses, 15 years), I tried to use the easiest method. It turned out that edmac was not even necessary and not using it made the main file from which we are working very readable and greatly simplified daily work. Just to give you an impression from our input file: The first two lines in the next paragraph are the Sanskrit text in transcription, \var produces a variant with reference to the verse number and verse quarter (a-d). So no line numbering was even necessary. The \lem produces the sign that divides the critical text and its witnesses from the variants, usually "]", the rest are sigla, like S1, S3 etc.

mumukṣuvyavahāroktimayāt prakaraṇād anu \danda athotpattiprakaraṇaṃ mayedaṃ parikathyate \sloka{1.5} \var{5b}{anu \Sseven \Sft \lem \emph{param} \Sone \Sthree \Snine \Ntwelve \Ntw}

I used pdflatex and memoir, which has paragraphed footnotes. Here is the relevant section from the preamble:

\renewcommand*{\@makefnmark}{} \newfootnoteseries{P} \paragraphfootstyle{P} \renewcommand{\thefootnoteP}{} \footmarkstyleP{} \renewcommand{\@makefnmarkP}{\hskip-2.2pt} \renewcommand{\footnoterule}{} \setlength{\stockheight}{6in} \renewcommand{\linenumberfont}{\normalfont\tiny} \setlength{\linenumbersep}{0pt}\setlength{\linenumberwidth}{0pt}\modulolinenumbers[2] \setlength{\footmarkwidth}{0em} \setlength{\footmarksep}{-\footmarkwidth} \addtolength{\skip\footins}{2mm plus 1mm} \leftskip=.2cm % indent of the verses \def\var#1#2{\footnoteP{#1 #2}} % footnotes

This is what I compiled from different examples (I am not a programmer), but it worked -- the edition has produced quite a few volumes and is almost finished!

Working with this file was easy, because one could easily read the text. The usual edmac code would have required us to identify an lemma with \edtext and then write the variant directly into the text. This may not matter in the case of few variants, but with many variants the text is quickly rendered unreadable -- even with all tricks to make footnotes invisible (I use folding in emacs). The following would be a single example verse (32 syllables, same size as the one quoted above), encoded in ekdosis and with lots of manuscripts:

\begin{tlg}[hp16][] \tl{ \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{manthāna} \rdg[type=stemmaerror,wit={B2}]{\unm śrīmanthāna} % stemma error \rdg[wit={C4,L1,N5}]{manthāra} \rdg[wit={N13,Tü,V1,V22,Vu}]{manthāno\skp{-}} \rdg[wit={J2}]{mandāra}}% \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{bhairavo} \rdg[wit={N20}]{mairavo} \rdg[wit={N23}]{bhairavā} \rdg[wit={V26}]{bhaivarau}} \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{yogī} \rdg[wit={J2}]{jogī} \rdg[wit={C1}]{siddha} \rdg[wit={V5}]{siddhe} \rdg[wit={J15,V8}]{yogi}} \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha} \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={B1,B3,C2,C3,C4pc,C6,N1,J10,J13,J17,N6,N10,N13,N17,Tü,V4,V11,V22,V26}]{śuddha} %stemma point \rdg[wit={J15}]{śruddha} \rdg[wit={B2,N19,V6}]{siddho\skp{-}} \rdg[wit={C1,V5}]{yogī} %s \rdg[wit={V1}]{suddha} \rdg[wit={J1,J3,J14,N2,N16}]{siddhi} \rdg[wit={J2}]{sandhi} \rdg[wit={N20}]{viddha} \rdg[wit={N22}]{sidha} \rdg[wit={N24}]{siddhar\skp{-}} \rdg[wit={V8}]{suddho}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={buddhaś ca}]{buddha\skp{ś-ca}} \rdg[wit={J2}]{tudhiś ca} \rdg[wit={C7}]{pādaś ca} \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,J1,J3,N3,N16,N20,V2,V3,V26}]{buddhiś ca}%stemma point \rdg[wit={N22}]{nudhaś ca} \rdg[wit={N24}]{cuddhaś ca} }\skm{ś-ca} \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{kanthaḍiḥ} \rdg[wit={B1}]{kanthariḥ} \rdg[wit={B2,N23}]{kanthaḍīḥ} \rdg[wit={C1,C6,J15,N10,N12,N20,N21,V6}]{kanthaḍī} \rdg[wit={C3}]{kanthaṭī} \rdg[wit={C4ac}]{kukuḍiḥ} \rdg[wit={V1,J10pc,N3}]{kanthalī} \rdg[wit={J10ac}]{kanhalī} \rdg[wit={N5}]{kaṃtharī} \rdg[wit={J2}]{kanthaḍi} \rdg[wit={J17,N6,N17,N22,V4,V11}]{kandalī} % \rdg[wit={V3}]{kanthaḍīṃ} \rdg[wit={J1}]{kanthaviḥ} \rdg[wit={V8}]{kandali} \rdg[wit={N13}]{kaṃpaṭiḥ} \rdg[wit={Tü}]{kaṃpaḍiḥ} \rdg[wit={M1}]{paddhatiḥ} \rdg[wit={V26}]{kānuṭiḥ} }/}\\ \tl{ \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{pauraṇṭakaḥ } \rdg[wit={N22}]{pauraṃṭaka} \rdg[wit={N5}]{pauraṃṭhakaḥ } % group according to alphabetical order? \rdg[wit={B1,N1,N10,V6}]{pauraṇḍakaḥ } \rdg[wit={V11}]{pauraṇḍakaṃ } \rdg[wit={B2}]{pauraṇḍaṅka} \rdg[wit={C3}]{pauraṃṭaṃka} \rdg[wit={N16,N24}]{kauraṇṭakaḥ } \rdg[wit={N12}]{kauraṃṭaka} \rdg[wit={J14,V26}]{kauraṇḍakaḥ } \rdg[wit={J2}]{koraṃṭaka} \rdg[wit={J4,N21,N23}]{koraṃtakaḥ } \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,N13,Tü,V22,Vu}]{koraṃṭakaḥ }% stemma point? \rdg[wit={N2}]{koraṇṭīkaḥ } \rdg[wit={N3}]{goraṃṭaka} \rdg[wit={M1}]{ghoraṃṭakaḥ } \rdg[wit={V8}]{\unm kāhapauraṇṭaka} \rdg[wit={Vu}]{koraṃḍīka} \rdg[wit={V2}]{kauraṃḍīkaḥ } \rdg[wit={N20}]{paura...kaḥ } %illeg \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{surānandaḥ } \rdg[wit={B2,N12}]{sarānanda} \rdg[wit={C2,J2,N2,N3,V3,N22,V2}]{surānanda} \rdg[wit={N24}]{śurānaṃdaḥ } \rdg[wit={J4}]{sarānandaḥ } \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha} \rdg[wit={V1,J1,J2,N16,N24}]{siddhi} \rdg[wit={V8}]{siddhā} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={pādaś}]{pāda\skp{ś-ca}} \rdg[wit={N22}]{pāda} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={ca}]{\skm{ś-ca}} \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}} \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{carpaṭiḥ} \rdg[wit={B1,B2,N2,N17,N23,V3,V4}]{carppaṭiḥ} \rdg[wit={C3,J17,V6}]{carppaṭī} \rdg[wit={C4ac,C6,C7,V1,V2}]{carpaṭī} \rdg[wit={C4pc,J1,J15,N3,V8,N24}]{carpaṭi} \rdg[wit={J2}]{tarpaṭi} \rdg[wit={M1}]{parpaṭiḥ} \rdg[wit={N5}]{carpaṭīḥ} \rdg[wit={N11,V11}]{carpaṭaḥ} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} %\note*{1.6cd is omitted in C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19.} }//} \end{tlg}

It is obvious that it is not possible to read the text anymore, a single verse does not even fit the screen. For editing and selecting the variants one has to produce a formatted pdf version.

---------

Another disadvantage of the edmac style approach is that it expects European languages. Scripts are no more the main problem, but the interaction of different scripts, word divisions and other minute details make daily life of the editor complicated.

I hope the next example is more or less intelligible. We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:

samyaggomaya

The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the Indian script that we use for the critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both words, we cannot just separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed correctly. We also want to quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). Now, to make things more complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so we have to split samyag and gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as \skp{g}, which explains to the xml converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because of this mess, we need a modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.

\app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}} \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ} \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ} \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak} \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ} \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ} \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ} \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}} }% \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya} \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya} \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya} \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}} }

Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all becoming very ingenious and it is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also increasingly complicated to work with and slowing down editing considerably.

This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for something that can be kept simple.

...

The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?

Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

Greetings Jürgen

----- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context --------- Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +0000 Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions? An: mailing list for ConTeXt users Cc: Bruce Horrocks , Idris Samawi Hamid

...

...

On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present

so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to educate myself I found this page https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html and thought about how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.

If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?

The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?

— Bruce Horrocks Hampshire, UK

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

----- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context -----

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

Hi there as a newcomer in ConTeXt I installed according to https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installing_ConTeXt_LMTX_on_MacOS/ and using TeXShop on macos as advised. However, I like to use STIX2-Fonts for Text and Math and hence my MWE to test which fonts are going to be embedded (CLI pdffonts): ————- \setupbodyfont[stixtwo] \starttext Test ß 1lIjJuQ \% § \& ?! VERSAL-ẞ- \|> --- 1234567890 --- // \placeformula[eqn:def-m] \startformula m = \frac{m_0}{\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}} \stopformula \stoptext ————- Unfortunately the compiler throws an error — why is there a check of STIX2-fonts versions, why is that important? I checked and found /Users/hp/Library/Fonts/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.12 b168 /Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/stix2-otf/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.11 b159 Could you please advise for a work around? from the log: ————- fonts > otf loading > loading 'stixtwotext-regular.otf', hash 'stixtwotext-regular' otf reader > unknown version ' ' in file 'stixtwotext-regular.otf' fonts > otf loading > loading done fonts > otf loading > saving 'stixtwotext-regular.otf' in cache system > lua > compiling '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd' system > lua > dumping '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd' stripped fonts > otf loading > loading, optimizing, packing and caching time 0.002 lua error > lua error on line 1 in file ./Untitled.tex: registered function call [1129]: ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: attempt to index a nil value (upvalue 'descriptions') stack traceback: ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: in local 'prepare_ligature' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:770: in upvalue 'addfeature' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:899: in local 'enhancer' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1269: in upvalue 'enhance' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1291: in field 'apply' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:263: in field 'load' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:602: in upvalue 'otftotfm' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:630: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:629> (...tail calls...) ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:378: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:366> (...tail calls...) ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:484: in field 'read' ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1336: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1193> (...tail calls...) 1 >> \setupbodyfont[stixtwo] ————- Many thanks for your support. Kind regards Heinrich Paeßens Mobile +49 1512 123 9876 tel:+4915121239876 Business Card https://www.paessens.tel/img/heinrich-paessens_bc-2021-03-11_signed.pdf

Thomas, You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example). You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft University (like ancient greek thesaurus : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools as online digital work, there is two ways : 1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do that; an example here in French  : http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html) 2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list ! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may help them ? a) They have to learn TEI XML, then b) learn Context stylesheet ! Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? Are we starting today ? Le 04/01/2022 à 13:38, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :

...

On 3. Jan 2022, at 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

While the system is ingenious and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks. I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue. Just for what it’s worth: I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons:

1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.

2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years.

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.

Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.

Thomas ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Ancients&Moderns

Thomas, Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and issues with multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece of work. I was interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with technical requisits when your real job is to think about the problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J. Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us know. There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do the work : but technical efficiency asks allways money. I know of a company that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl with text formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on screen and a printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover of the book and the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and the quantity of books in stock. ConTeXt was at the very start a kind of a clever answer to the huge of technical abilities asked by LaTeX, and free of charge, numerous people interested by text editing have turned their eyes to ConTeXt. I agree with you about reading and solving problems for a 400 pages text with 2 or 3 different languages and several levels of criticus apparatus : one needs to begin with the beginning or a kind of beginning with some issues given by a real and modest sample. Best//JP Le 04/01/2022 à 21:02, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :

I basically agree with everything you say, Jean-Pierre. Publishers are modern-day robber barons, and they have been stifling and exploiting scholars and scholarship for many years now. Behemoths such as Brill, de Gruyter, or Elsevier are bankrupting libraries in the entire world. However, we scholars also have some responsibility: if we could agree with each other, we could easily bypass the big publishers and have our critical editions (in a variety of formats) on our university’s websites. But we don’t do that: younger scholars need the validation of big name publications to build reputation and find a job, older scholars (myself included) are vain and/or old-fashioned and prefer a “real” book.

For your questions at the end: as you know, TEI is an insanely huge beast. Nobody will be willing and/or able to implement all of it in ConTeXt. What we need is actual use cases: scholars coming here and building up the expertise via the work they’re actually doing. Preferably in smaller installments so the developers and advanced users can slowly prepare bits and pieces of these stylesheets. No-one is going to look at a 400-page edition with all kinds of special needs in one go; we start with a chapter, a few pages, and we make our way. That’s what I expected when I wrote the wiki page on TEI xml: that it would slowly develop into something more comprehensive. Alas, it has been sitting there for 11 years… Every now and then, someone will appear on the mailing list and say: I need four apparatuses and six parallel translations and bells and whistles at every paragraph, but when you ask for real examples and specifications, they ride out into the sunset, never to be heard of again… So: I’m all for continuing in this direction, but we need some continuity. (And, not to brag, but still: I even managed to obtain some funding a couple of years ago to improve the bibliographical support in ConTeXt; if you have a real project, you can always allocate some funding for these things). As for learning TEI: I really think this is absolutely inevitable; even if new formats will be invented in the future (and TEI has serious shortcomings for many sorts of manuscript traditions), they will probably do so with TEI as a starting point.

I’m not working on a critical edition right now, but I have done some preparatory work and am willing to chip in!

All best

Thomas

...

On 4. Jan 2022, at 18:54, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

Thomas,

You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example).

You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft University (like ancient greek thesaurus :http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary :http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools as online digital work, there is two ways :

1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do that; an example here in French :http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)

2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list ! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may help them ?

a) They have to learn TEI XML, then

b) learn Context stylesheet !

Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? Are we starting today ?

---

If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl /http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage :http://www.pragma-ade.nl /http://context.aanhet.net archive :https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki :http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Ancients&Moderns

Thank you Luigi ! "Quite old" doesn't matter. The date of the wiki page from Thomas is 2010... And my own contribution to first steps with ConTeXt (in French and not for mathematics) through a Wikibook is no more valuable, full of errors and obsolete on many aspects (https://fr.wikibooks.org/wiki/ConTeXt) ! As Garulfo made a quite good job last year with his own contribution (https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context/tree/m...), it may be useful to produce a kind of "howto" with TEI-XML and LMTX-CTX. I propose that at first time, any volunteer gather documentation on TEI-XML with ConTeXt to feed the wiki page on this topic, with in mind a real case of their choice (which may be a real academic case or an issue of their choice), not too tricky - or too far away of the common use, even if, by itself, the issues encountered in academic edition in humanities (or TEI-XML edition) are ... tricky and/or not very usual (because not it is not everybody who try to edit the work of Romanos the Melodist, or sanskrit poetry !). As I saw that Thomas A. Schmitz was time to time an editor of Second Sophistic authors (among other things like French Renaissance poets), and few others Context users use to deal with CTX in order to publish ancients texts/poetry (like Pablo ...), I propose in a second time a general discussion on the topic, with in mind : What are the needs ? and what it is necessary to achieve at first and how ? Thank you to share your views. JP Le 05/01/2022 à 09:43, luigi scarso a écrit :

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:00 AM Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

Thomas, Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and issues with multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece of work. I was interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with technical requisits when your real job is to think about the problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J. Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us know. There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do the work : but technical efficiency asks allways money. I know of a company that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl with text formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on screen and a printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover of the book and the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and the quantity of books in stock.

quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting: embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

-- luigi

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Agrégé de philosophie Ancients&Moderns "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

Pablo and Luigi, Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the wiki page made by Thomas ? https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

...

[...] quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting: embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Agrégé de philosophie Ancients&Moderns "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

On 1/5/22 1:34 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

Pablo and Luigi,

Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the wiki page made by Thomas ?

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml

Jean-Pierre, excellent idea! Pablo

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

...

[...] quite old (2014), but perhaps still interesting: embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now. It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib -- and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess. But you can try with $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf and translate teitagged.txt with google. -- luigi

The starting point of the discussion on reledmac and other related points, has begun on May 13, 2016. See here about the way to get a ConTeXt equivalent to a LaTeX encoding : https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg81793.html https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg81793.html (I gave the LaTeX code). For the question asked by Jürgen, as far as I know, you have to deal (and play) with setupnote, definenote AND setupline commands. Discussion is here : https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=ntg-context@ntg.nl&q=subject:%22Re%5C%3A+%5C%5BNTG%5C-context%5C%5D+TwoColumns+in+two+different+languages%2C+with+alternate+text+on+even+and+odd+page.%22&o=newest&f=1

Le 5 janv. 2022 à 18:28, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context a écrit :

Hi Luigi & Pablo, I’ve thinking that Google translate may be provide some help. I’ll try it !

...

Le 5 janv. 2022 à 17:13, luigi scarso via ntg-context mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> a écrit :

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote: On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

...

[...] quite old (2014), but perhaps still interesting: embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now. It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib -- and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess. But you can try with $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf and translate teitagged.txt with google.

-- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl http://www.pragma-ade.nl/ / http://context.aanhet.net http://context.aanhet.net/ archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net http://contextgarden.net/ ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

On 1/3/22 10:43 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now reledmac) have become the standard for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions were and are:

- footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible - automatic reference to linenumbers - or: manual references to verse numbers - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

Hi Jürgen, not knowing which are the specific requirements for the language you use, I think all of these may be achieved in ConTeXt LMTX.

In the last years new requirements have been added:

- some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce online editions - data have to be made available in TEI xml format

Sorry for asking the basic question: what are online editions? I mean, does uploading a PDF document count as an online edition? As you may already know, ConTeXt can deal with XML sources (see »Kritische Editionen mit TEI xml und ConTEXt« by Thomas Schmitz (2011) [https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=72857]). ConTeXt might also output XML. But this is much harder in practice. All I know about it is what Hans wrote bout this.

This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for something that can be kept simple.

Sorry, Jürgen, but from your statements it isn’t clear to me how ConTeXt can fit in you projects: simpler and more readable input code?

Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition3.pdf contains line numbers and margin notes. It can be done with ConTeXt. https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition2.pdf contains multiple apparatus below critical texts. It might require \setupnote[location=text]. https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition.pdf contains multiple apparatus at the bottom of the page. Just in case it might help, Pablo

Dear critical edition experts, the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If anything else is planned by the experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know. As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is needed, but since the topic is being discussed -

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons: 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data. 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say that the latter significantly slows down the collation process. At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries, possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no Indian institution will grant any rights). Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work privately, we are safe.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years.

Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities and have started to use it as the default.

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml. Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.

I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis do the conversion, if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is just for private entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the tool of choice is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this depressing note. Best Jürgen --- Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

Dear Jean-Pierre, I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote. If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your example, then the input line Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is defined (and explained). ----- Nachricht von Jean-Pierre Delange --------- Datum: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 13:29:20 +0100 Von: Jean-Pierre Delange Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions? An: ntg-context@ntg.nl Cc: hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

Dear Jürgen,

Would you mind to test the MWE sample I've given (ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.tex) whith a little bit more information inside - in order to test furthermore ? You can change the text, even the \dorecurse option, in order to see what simply works and what does not for your purpose. There is a difficulty I've tried to solve some years ago : when you get two parrallel texts (for example an Ancient Greek text on odd page, and its translation on the even page) the solution seem to be in 'stream' to get a side by side text on different pages. If you try to do a two columns with separate texts - greek and its translation in my example - on the same page, it is working for the first page, but doesn't work for the following pages, that's why the 'stream' option seems a better way (see here : https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns#Examples_of_MkIV_streams).

Le 05/01/2022 à 12:52, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :

...

Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If anything else is planned by the experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is needed, but since the topic is being discussed -

...

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons: 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data. 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say that the latter significantly slows down the collation process.

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries, possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no Indian institution will grant any rights).

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work privately, we are safe.

...

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years.

Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities and have started to use it as the default.

...

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml. Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.

I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis do the conversion, if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is just for private entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the tool of choice is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this depressing note. Best Jürgen

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki     : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Agrégé de philosophie Ancients&Moderns "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

----- Ende der Nachricht von Jean-Pierre Delange ----- --- Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

On 1/5/22 6:39 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.

If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your example, then the input line

Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque

prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is defined (and explained).

Hi Jürgen, it is a simple command definition: \def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}} Just in case it might not be clear, "\CNote{laboribus}{première note}" would be the same as typing "laboribus\cNote{laboribus] première note}". BTW, for humans "a" = "A". For a computer, "a" ≠ "A". So "\CNote" is a different command from "\cNote". For a basic sample is fine, but for real documents creating commands that are too similar for humans is the best way to make mistakes. My apologies if the explanations are obvious to you. I hope this might help, Pablo

Le 06/01/2022 à 17:57, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 12:52 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

...

Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I would perhaps have not even asked. The wiki is a cooperative effort. Nothing prevents you from starting a new article on critical editions at the ConTeXt Garden (https://wiki.contextgarden.net).

If you put some samples, other users may extend you article (again, this is a cooperative effort).

...

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is needed, but since the topic is being discussed - This should be no big surprise: Knuth developed TeX as a typesetting programming language, not mainly as an input format.

Once you get used to it, TeX (or ConTeXt) may be easier for you as input format. But it makes sense that as input format, ConTeXt cannot be future–proof in that way, if it is in development.

...

...

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons: 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data. 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard. I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say that the latter significantly slows down the collation process. Research (Maryanne Wolf) shows that people read way better on paper. We tend to forget way faster what we read on e–ink screens. Just in case anyone is interested

PDF is way easier to maintain. Once you generate it, this is all to it. XML sources need more work to get and display data (oversimplifying the issue).

In my experience, having XML sources requires learning how to generate PDF output from them (and how to display them online). I use Markdown and if I had to share my document, this would be way easier than to share ConTeXt source files containing text. That way, I could focus on the typesetting and the team could focus on the pure content (text or images).

TEI may be a pain to learn and to write, but it makes sense to use it as input format. Or the alternative would be a light–weight markup language, not TeX.

...

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare. Don’t universites host online archives for research projects?

...

In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries, possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online publication by German copyright (no Indian institution will grant any rights). I’m interested in the copyright issue.

All I knew about German copyright law is that it protects critical editions (I mean, not the apparatus, but the text itself.)

What is actually protected by German copyright in manuscript scans? The photograph itself? In that case, for manuscripts and works that are in the public domain, who is supposed to be the copyright holder?

...

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work privately, we are safe. Maybe the wrong approach is that studies in humanities don’t need a strong background in computer science (programming).

In that case, it is really hard to use computers to achieve rich and complex goals.

...

...

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml. Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it. I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis do the conversion, if necessary. A light–weight markup language for critical editions would be something to consider, in that case. (But it is something to be developed, if it makes sense at all.)

...

But in publication practice in my field, most of this is just for private entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the tool of choice is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this depressing note. Word documents for critical editions? In that case, publishers will have to typeset the book themselves, won’t they?

As far as I know, some publishers in Humanities in France (e.g. Librairie Philosophique Vrin and many others, like Dunod) prefer that editor/authors provide a Word processing text (even with a special style sheet) than a PDF ready to print ("bon à tirer"). The "Librairie philosophique Vrin" has his own style sheet which give a PDF output, but Dunod publisher has (for example) build since 15 years an external working flow on a distant (and private server) : the Word text is revised with Word tags (title, chapter, etc.) and send to a server which automatically apply some XML, LateX and Perl procedures. Then the output is in PDF (ready to print) and HTML formats. The typessetting is made by publisher. But, publishing in Humanities is not, AMHO, to print a simple essay with 6 or 12 chapters and a TOC with a backmatter bibliography. Therefore, even if this kind of book is rare (e.g. a text in 3 languages : Greek, latin, and a translation in modern language on the even page, with footnotes, and a commentary on the odd page, or some essay on the different levels of text written by Montaigne since the first edition of "Les essais", with the different states of text on the even page, or in a column, and the commentary in a parallell column or page) may be tricky. Pablo is right : scholars in some research fields have to learn computing. That's why there is sometimes a proposal to learn some technical language (like Tei-XML here : https://cesr.cnrs.fr/actualites/actualites-scientifiques/stage-initiation-%C... and here http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/actualites/2011.01_stage_tei_CESR.pdf). The question of funding computing tools is an issue : it is true in a private situation when you want to write a manuscript with versioning (you have to know how it works), but it is more relevant within an academic field of research : who wants to buy days of education for scholars for their learning in computing or for XML Oxygen and other tools ? As allways, needs create tools : but it is possible in a cooperative spirit, as Pablo truely point it out.

Many thanks for your insightful comments,

Pablo ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Agrégé de philosophie Ancients&Moderns "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

Am 06.01.22 um 19:41 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:

there was a time when publishers did typesetting and printing themselves in which case they might have some interest in tools but afaik that time is long gone (and i admit that i never met a publisher where investing in know how and technology was part of the corporate identity (there were some but by the time context showed up most large publishers started outsourcing to far-far-away and those interested in technologies left), at least not one that invest beyond a specific product and even then falling back on tools like tex is a last resort ...

I know one company in Leipzig that works for big publishers (www.le-tex.de). I talked to them a few years ago at a book fair and applied twice for their job offers (but they want people to work at their office). For scientific publications they’re using a XML-to-LaTeX workflow, otherwise Word-based (->XML->LaTeX or ->InDesign). Of course they accept all kind of data; it looks like they’re really good in automated workflows. But I guess there are strong competitors in the far east... Hraban

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar. As I indicated, there are mostly no budgets for book typesetting in Indology and I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other words, the authors have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc. Our publications series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with LaTeX, as are my publications with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in Germany. There is no institution offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no commercial interest in it and I think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts are used instead of transliteration).

Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use TeX internally, which is convenient, but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation, frustrating in a way, but it also gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own dilettantic designs).

Jürgen

perhaps this can be interesting https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/ (seen them at a context meeting years ago) -- luigi

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 . But maybe Hans knows these people? It's a small dutch typesetting company doing work for afaik publishere in the the humanities and they are speciaized in non latin scripts (read: whatever can't be outsourced to large scale service far-far-away). They use their own plain tex macros (understandable and

On 1/8/2022 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote: possible because no publishere can force to use a macro package for tricky typesetting). They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized. Over the years we improved that (this also relates to better specs showing up and more fonts; the reference for rendering is microsoft uniscribe). We also stepwise improved the more complex bits and pieces of handling discretionaries with extensive (and complex) latin fonts (that they use and can test) as well as some fuzzy arabic fonts. it is the main reason why we have the generic font loader (i.e. most of the context fontloader works with plain (as we ship it) including some of the fancy stuff; latex used that code too but with patches and layers around it and maybe not all features but it switched to using libraries). So, indeed I know these (two) people, Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:

They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.

Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited). Dear Hans, two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and font. 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms. What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound. I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions. 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not much one can do about it, I guess). When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly, but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the latest otf Version has no ṭ etc. Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in the TeX Font Catalogue do not! Jürgen --- Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context skrev:

Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical linguistics hat I have found nothing missing. (If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better coverage than Noto Mono!) https://fonts.google.com/noto Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International, although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage. https://software.sil.org/charis/ (Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable customized fonts!) There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as well as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic work. If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite permissive Open Font License https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course materials, handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are excellent. I do all my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono) and *TeX/Pandoc. Regards, /Benct

Regards,

Robert

info@mo-perspectief.nl

...

Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> het volgende geschreven:

I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:

...

They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.

Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).

Dear Hans,

two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and font.

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions.

2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not much one can do about it, I guess).

When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly, but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.

Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in the TeX Font Catalogue do not!

Jürgen

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________

...

If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

Den mån 10 jan. 2022 10:34 skrev:

Cardo is another nice font: https://www.scholarsfonts.net/

Denis

Not entirely free last time I looked, and had issues with the rendering of its lowercase ‹o› (which I suspected was deliberately introduced in the free version, although that may be unwarranted geek paranoia! :-) BTW Doulos SIL is their Times clone, although it at least used to lack italics, which makes it a no-starter for most comparatists who use italics for object language.

*Von:* ntg-context *Im Auftrag von *BPJ via ntg-context *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 9. Januar 2022 17:18 *An:* mailing list for ConTeXt users *Cc:* BPJ *Betreff:* [NTG-context] Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)

Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context skrev:

Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical linguistics hat I have found nothing missing.

(If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better coverage than Noto Mono!)

https://fonts.google.com/noto

Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International, although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage.

https://software.sil.org/charis/

(Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable customized fonts!)

There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as well as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic work.

If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite permissive Open Font License

https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web

Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course materials, handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are excellent. I do all my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono) and *TeX/Pandoc.

Regards,

/Benct

Regards,

Robert

info@mo-perspectief.nl

...

Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> het volgende geschreven:

I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:

...

They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.

Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).

Dear Hans,

two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and font.

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions.

2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not much one can do about it, I guess).

When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly, but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.

Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in the TeX Font Catalogue do not!

Jürgen

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder Philipps-Universitaet Marburg FG Indologie u. Tibetologie Deutschhausstr.12 35032 Marburg Germany Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930 hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________

...

If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in    the TeX Font Catalogue do not!

It's often not that bad when you use context ... % \enabletrackers[*comp*] \definefontfeature[default][default][compose=yes] \starttext ṥ \stoptext this feature has been there quite from the start of mkiv because otherwise mojca couldn't deal with her language Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions. two things here:

transliterations ... do we need a mechanism for that ? latin in -> something else out (if so i need specs) hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a typical rainy weekend activity Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you very much Arthur ! Yves Codet (Assistant Professor at Toulouse University, member of CRAPA an institutional public research in Humanities in South of France) is involved in TeX patterns for Greek and Indic languages. He is a translator of Indian theater pieces (among other things). See there : https://ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/xetex/hyphenation/sanhyph And his involvement in the discussion about Devanagari romanisation for translitteration and/or specific UTF8 specification in order to respect Devanagari and Brahmi hyphenation with XeTeX. https://tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2008-October/010904.html Le 10/01/2022 à 12:26, Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context a écrit :

On Sun, Jan 09, 2022 at 11:46:44PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

...

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions. hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a typical rainy weekend activity There are patterns, that implement almost exactly the kind of automatic hyphenation Jürgen describes (see https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/master/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/...). They’re just not in the ConTeXt distribution ...

Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- Jean-Pierre Delange Ancients&Moderns Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions. I can add sanskit patterns to the distribution but I wonder: how does

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote: this interact with reordering in fonts? Do we need to postpone hyphenation till after reordering? Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Den lör 8 jan. 2022 12:44Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> skrev:

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 .

Maybe that is why they talk about "special TeX fonts"? Surely today they would use an engine which can use conventional Unicode fonts directly? But maybe Hans knows these people?

see here : https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/projects.php?lang=en#h3

These fellows seem to work for Brepols and Oxford >University Press asswell as Utrecht University.

Read this curious assertion (curious because the text mention an invisible project) : "Stoa Project

The Stoa Project, which is carried out by the history working group of the Department of philosophy http://www.phil.uu.nl/ of Utrecht University, will lead to a renewed publication of text fragments of the early Stoa, represented by philosophers such as Zeno, Chrysippus and Cleanthes. Very little of our knowledge about the Stoa comes from primary sources; most of what we know about it has been derived from secondary sources. Our most important sources are other philosophers and doxographers, who have cited and paraphrased the learnings of the early Stoa. Through modern research on doxographic traditions and republications of many of the sources, the current publication of this material, J. von Arnim’s Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta (1903-1924) has become outdated.

TAT Zetwerk’s role in this project is managing the FileMaker database that contains Stoic text fragments (mainly in ancient Greek) accompanied by text critical and historic-philosophical notes, an English translation, and meta data. As soon as the text parts in the database have reached their final form, we convert them into a TeX-format, so that we can generate a mirrored critical edition. We can then create indices and concordances by using the meta data from the database. Currently, the Stoa Project does not have its own website." If I understand, TAT Zetwerk manage Apple FileMaker database of pieces of Stoicorum Fragmenta texts (von Arnim edition) in order to convert them in TeX form (with critical apparatus...). But they give no sample.

Le 07/01/2022 à 18:35, luigi scarso via ntg-context a écrit :

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

...

Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar. As I indicated, there are mostly no budgets for book typesetting in Indology and I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other words, the authors have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc. Our publications series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with LaTeX, as are my publications with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in Germany. There is no institution offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no commercial interest in it and I think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts are used instead of transliteration).

Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use TeX internally, which is convenient, but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation, frustrating in a way, but it also gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own dilettantic designs).

Jürgen

perhaps this can be interesting https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/ (seen them at a context meeting years ago)

-- luigi

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