Hello to all:
Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its original language can download the new version:
Both versions are available at the following links
- Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
- Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation section of the CTAN repository.
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:45:00 +0100 Joaquín Ataz López jal@um.es wrote:
Hiya Joaquín,
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
Well, I'm the one who (desperately) need it and I'm delighted. :-D
Thanks a lot for providing such a wonderful "introduction" popularizing ConTeXt!!
Sincerely, Gour
@Joaquín + english translator : many thanks for this great and useful contribution to ConTeXt community dev. Impressive.
Being interested into contributing to a french version, what would be your prefered way ?
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
Le 03/01/2021 à 11:32, Saša Janiška a écrit :
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:45:00 +0100 Joaquín Ataz López jal@um.es wrote:
Hiya Joaquín,
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
Well, I'm the one who (desperately) need it and I'm delighted. :-D
Thanks a lot for providing such a wonderful "introduction" popularizing ConTeXt!!
Sincerely, Gour
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
If you want to see it under https://github.com/contextgarden/ just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who should initially have access.
Mojca
On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
If you want to see it under https://github.com/contextgarden/ just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of context related repositories
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
I saw that Mojca created a directory https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
Joaquín, if you agree, and if - you provide me with the spanish + english source codes - Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
i could : 1/ push the current code 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe : - for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source) - for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list for discussion.
Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation project with git ?". One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single git command ?
Le 03/01/2021 à 19:08, Hans Hagen a écrit :
On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
If you want to see it under https://github.com/contextgarden/ just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of context related repositories
Hans
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
On 5 Jan 2021, at 20:31, Garulfo garulfo@azules.eu wrote:
Hi all,
I saw that Mojca created a directory https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
i could : 1/ push the current code 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe :
- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list for discussion.
Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation project with git ?". One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single git command ?
I think we need to be really clear about what we want to achieve here.
1) Is it just making the source plus the PDF available for download? If so then there are plenty of simpler ways to do that than using Git.
2) If it is to gather feedback on things like typos then we don't need Git. For example I spotted a missing ']' in the English translation so all I need is a way to submit a 'bug report' not access to the source.
3) So what is left? To provide a way for translators to be notified of changes to the original? To provide a collaboration mechanism for significant changes to the document?
I don't see that Git adds much in the way of value unless Joaquín and the translators are already very familiar with it -- because the learning curve is very steep and recovering from mistakes (made to the repository itself rather than to the document content) can sometimes be extremely difficult.
-- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire, UK
I don't really know anything about git, so I can't give my opinion about what is or isn't convenient to do. Certainly to report bugs in my text I don't think it takes anything more than an e-mail to send them to me. Having a repository can be useful to keep a version that is always up to date; but that, on the other hand, would force me to be continually modifying the text, which in principle is not my intention. I do not exclude that there will be other versions in the future, but for the moment this is not part of my plans. And if there were other versions, it would be more to add some chapter; mainly I think that the most important material that is missing is the one related to XML, Lua and Metapost, that is: the three additional languages in which a ConTeXt document can be written. But I am far from being able to write anything about any of those three aspects. Some member of the list has offered to help me with it, but not immediately (we all have a lot of work).
The original idea, I think, was to provide a platform that would allow different collaborators to translate the text into different languages. Whether or not git is the best solution for that purpose, I really don't know.
What I would appreciate is that guide on "how to set up a documentation translation project with git? that Garulfo proposes.
El 5/1/21 a las 21:31, Garulfo escribió:
Hi all,
I saw that Mojca created a directory https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
i could : 1/ push the current code 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe :
- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list
for discussion.
Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation project with git ?". One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single git command ?
Le 03/01/2021 à 19:08, Hans Hagen a écrit :
On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
If you want to see it under https://github.com/contextgarden/ just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of context related repositories
Hans
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
On 1/5/2021 9:31 PM, Garulfo wrote:
Hi all,
I saw that Mojca created a directory https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
i could : 1/ push the current code 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe :
- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list
for discussion.
Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation project with git ?". One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single git command ?
It's mainly about archiving, right? Those who write and maintain decide to use the repos in whatever way. (Personally I only use the gardens git repos for archiving and occasionally just watching what got changed. I don't even know (or care) how to fetch a specific version other than the latest right now.
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
I am not a translator but I think that working from XLIFF documents would make the translation a bit easier.
XLIFF makes it possible to follow the translation process, at least partially.
For example, if the translation tools implement the "Change Tracking Extension" module defined in the latest XLIFF specification (v2.1), you can track the status of elements. The "property" attribute can indicate a new level: for example, the translator who changed the "state" (XLIFF attribute) of the translation: initial, translated, reviewed, final.
[1] https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=xliff [2] http://docs.oasis-open.org/xliff/xliff-core/v2.1/xliff-core-v2.1.pdf
Unfortunately, translators would need to use translation tools based on the latest XLIFF specification (v2) to take advantage of this. However, someone will eventually be able to use the tools at their disposal.
Garulfo garulfo@azules.eu writes:
Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation project with git ?". One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single git command ?
Here is an example to clarify my previous comment.
#+BEGIN_SRC xml <xliff xmlns="urn:oasis:names:tc:xliff:document:2.0" xmlns="urn:oasis:names:tc:xliff:changetracking:2.0" version="2.1" srcLang="en" trgLang="fr"> <file id="f1"> <unit id="u1"> ctr:changeTrack <ctr:revisions appliesTo="segment" currentVersion="r1"> <ctr:revision author="Frank" datetime="2021-27-01T11:00:00+2:00" version="r1"> <ctr:item property="state">reviewed</ctr:item> </ctr:revision> <ctr:revision author="Bob" datetime="2021-07-01T15:00:00+2:00" version="r2"> <ctr:item property="state">translated</ctr:item> </ctr:revision> </ctr:revisions> <ctr:revisions appliesTo="target" currentVersion="r1"> <ctr:revision author="Bob" datetime="2021-07-01T15:00:00+2:00" version="r1"> <ctr:item property="content">Bonjour</ctr:item> </ctr:revision> </ctr:revisions> </ctr:changeTrack> <segment state="reviewed"> <source>Hello</source> <target>Bonjour</target> </segment> </unit> </file> </xliff> #+END_SRC
I think the creation of the repository is a good idea and I suggest the name "introCTX-MkiV". I could provide the source files (in Spanish and English) and eventually clarify any doubt that the various translators had about the meaning of the original. It should also be taken into account that in the original there are some fragments or examples designed for a Spanish cultural field that, outside it, do not make much sense. In this regard, the English translation has the merit of adapting these fragments (instead of translating them) or deleting them, as the case may be.
What I don't think is to coordinate the repository: I have never worked on collective projects and I hardly know how github works
El 3/1/21 a las 17:42, Mojca Miklavec escribió:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into other languages: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html
If you want to see it under https://github.com/contextgarden/ just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who should initially have access.
Mojca ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences (and similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.
I do not know if I have been able to do this, but although there are some references to LaTeX, I have tried to write a totally independent text, which does not require knowledge of LaTeX or TeX to be understood.
El 3/1/21 a las 19:42, BPJ escribió:
This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences (and similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.
-- Better --help|less than helpless
Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López <jal@um.es mailto:jal@um.es> skrev:
Hello to all: Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English. It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt. As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its original language can download the new version: Both versions are available at the following links - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation section of the CTAN repository. -- Joaquín Ataz López Derecho Civil Universidad de Murcia ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
Well, there's a document called "LaTeX in proper context", but that's from a different era and nowhere near exhaustive... ________________________________________ Von: ntg-context ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl im Auftrag von BPJ bpj@melroch.se Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Januar 2021 22:02:22 An: mailing list for ConTeXt users Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
-- Better --help|less than helpless
Den sön 3 jan. 2021 20:04Joaquín Ataz López <jal@um.esmailto:jal@um.es> skrev:
I do not know if I have been able to do this, but although there are some references to LaTeX, I have tried to write a totally independent text, which does not require knowledge of LaTeX or TeX to be understood.
El 3/1/21 a las 19:42, BPJ escribió: This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences (and similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.
-- Better --help|less than helpless
Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López <jal@um.esmailto:jal@um.es> skrev: Hello to all:
Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its original language can download the new version:
Both versions are available at the following links
- Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
- Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation section of the CTAN repository.
-- Joaquín Ataz López Derecho Civil Universidad de Murcia
___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nlmailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nlmailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
-- Joaquín Ataz López Derecho Civil Universidad de Murcia
___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nlmailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
On 1/3/2021 10:11 PM, denis.maier@ub.unibe.ch wrote:
Well, there's a document called "LaTeX in proper context", but that's from a different era and nowhere near exhaustive...
and not that valid any more either i think
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and then to context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are there 'from word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a motivation to write one.
So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips / suggestions and turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by those who make some transition or use alongside. The wiki is the place start with that.
So .. up to users.
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Am 03.01.2021 um 22:24 schrieb Hans Hagen j.hagen@xs4all.nl:
On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and then to context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are there 'from word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a motivation to write one.
I guess most ConTeXt users migrated from LaTeX at some point, so that guide would really make sense. But I can’t write it either, even if I’m also working with LaTeX (but just as a user of one special class).
If I run into a problem in LaTeX that I know to solve in ConTeXt, the approach is never right.
I think the similarities of LaTeX and ConTeXt are mostly misleading, you’re better off trying to forget everything and start anew.
In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”, without the need to understand the commands and settings involved, while in ConTeXt most problems are solved with \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue].
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Writing my book I have users of text processors (Word/LibreOffice) and layout applications (InDesign etc.) in mind, even if I assume that most readers (if I’ll ever publish it...) will come from LaTeX.
So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips / suggestions and turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by those who make some transition or use alongside. The wiki is the place start with that.
So .. up to users.
Yes, and that means: up to users migrating from LaTeX and documenting their struggles.
Hraban
I understand all that. I just thought that maybe such resources existed which I didn't know.
While as you say the approaches differ it would be nice to have like a FAQ "how do you do what LaTeX package X does in ConTeXt?" I guess that that is what I'm after. Something like a LaTeX <--> ConTeXt Rosetta stone. Knowing that rather than importing a package I should modify some command using some options is basic; what one really needs to know is which specific command to modify using which specific options with which specific values to do what package X does in LaTeX. If/since it doesn't exist maybe it would be a good thing if users make it exist. It would certainly help drawing more proselytes. I'm basically still using only LaTeX because I know which packages to use to do the things I want. Perhaps that *is* as good a reason as any to stay with LaTeX but it shouldn't be a barrier to learning ConTeXt which IME it is.
To take but one example: when wearing my linguist hat I deal with obscure scripts and languages, mostly dead languages, which no standard LaTeX index processor can handle (at least not out of the box) so I have my pile of Perl hacks which generate indices using Perl's excellent Unicode capabilities and some excellent modules written by other people. (I use the same LaTeX packages as everyone else, I just have a homemade way of going from idx to ind.) The first hurdle to know if/how ConTeXt might offer a better solution (which it doesn't AFAIK but my own tool can easily generate ConTeXt markup as well as LaTeX markup should it come to that) was to find out that indices are called "registers" in ConTeXt (not too surprising since it is _register_ in Swedish) for searching for "index" on the ConTeXt wiki finds an error page!
Admittedly it might be just me: I have a hard time knowing where to look in the likewise excellent Vim documentation too: what search terms to use. Finding a LaTeX solution to a problem with Google OTOH usually is pretty fast done — if you can describe your problem in prose you usually don't hit a wall.
With knowledge of TeX basics I did not mean a working knowledge of plain TeX but the actual basics: reserved characters, syntax, space after a command is ignored, a blank line makes a paragraph, that sort of things which are common to all flavors.
On 4 Jan 2021, at 14:02, BPJ bpj@melroch.se wrote:
for searching for "index" on the ConTeXt wiki finds an error page!
Redirect page added. If you see more such issues, please do the same.
Best wishes, Taco
— Taco Hoekwater E: taco@bittext.nl genderfluid (all pronouns)
On 1/4/2021 2:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
I understand all that. I just thought that maybe such resources existed which I didn't know.
While as you say the approaches differ it would be nice to have like a FAQ "how do you do what LaTeX package X does in ConTeXt?" I guess that that is what I'm after. Something like a LaTeX <--> ConTeXt Rosetta stone. Knowing that rather than importing a package I should modify some command using some options is basic; what one really needs to know is which specific command to modify using which specific options with which specific values to do what package X does in LaTeX. If/since it doesn't exist maybe it would be a good thing if users make it exist. It would certainly help drawing more proselytes. I'm basically still using only LaTeX because I know which packages to use to do the things I want. Perhaps that *is* as good a reason as any to stay with LaTeX but it shouldn't be a barrier to learning ConTeXt which IME it is.
Often it's better to start from scratch as it might be that the choice for some solution in one system would be a different one in an other. I never had to use an office application (word, open office, whatever) but I'm pretty sure that if one comes from a tex mindset one also looks for the wrong solutions. (Which probably is why one can sometimes find those useless ramblings about msword and such among texies: an even little able user of some word processors knows how to write a letter and probably could not get it done in tex in a minute, after all it starts with installation.)
So, I wonder if recipes would work well. (Just like switching from say lisp to pascal, or even lisp to prolog, or pascal to c# is not a matter of reading a few page manual.)
To take but one example: when wearing my linguist hat I deal with obscure scripts and languages, mostly dead languages, which no standard LaTeX index processor can handle (at least not out of the box) so I have my pile of Perl hacks which generate indices using Perl's excellent Unicode capabilities and some excellent modules written by other people. (I use the same LaTeX packages as everyone else, I just have a homemade way of going from idx to ind.) The first hurdle to know if/how ConTeXt might offer a better solution (which it doesn't AFAIK but my own tool can easily generate ConTeXt markup as well as LaTeX markup should it come to that) was to find out that indices are called "registers" in ConTeXt (not too surprising since it is _register_ in Swedish) for searching for "index" on the ConTeXt wiki finds an error page!
Sure, but when such specialization is needed, any (transition) manual is kind of tricky. If systems are indeed quite different (and there are definitely conceptual diferences between latex and context and plain) it might even be a reason not to look further. That said: there is some info on how to set up the sorter for different languages.
Admittedly it might be just me: I have a hard time knowing where to look in the likewise excellent Vim documentation too: what search terms to use. Finding a LaTeX solution to a problem with Google OTOH usually is pretty fast done — if you can describe your problem in prose you usually don't hit a wall.
The good news is that often on this list you get an answer (and sometimes looking at examples in e.g. the test suite also helps). But one aspect remains: learning (any) tex takes time. This is compensated by the fact that you can use it forever as it's unlike to stay (or taken over by some large company that then ditches it in favour of its own stuff). Unlearning probably also takes soem time and effort.
And in context one also can be triggered into leanring metapost and lua so that adds to the burden (but also fun).
With knowledge of TeX basics I did not mean a working knowledge of plain TeX but the actual basics: reserved characters, syntax, space after a command is ignored, a blank line makes a paragraph, that sort of things which are common to all flavors.
It definitely helps to have an idea how tex deals with what you input and even how it internally works a bit. Just try to get a copy of TeX by Topic ... a pretty good summary of the basics. And after that the TeX Book ... just to get the feelling of what world one enters. Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Am 04.01.2021 um 14:02 schrieb BPJ bpj@melroch.se:
I understand all that. I just thought that maybe such resources existed which I didn't know.
While as you say the approaches differ it would be nice to have like a FAQ "how do you do what LaTeX package X does in ConTeXt?" I guess that that is what I'm after.
But that’s already a wrong approach IMO – you need to think in goals, not in paths.
Most ConTeXt users don’t know what any LaTeX package does, so you need to explain what you want to achieve.
Regardless which system you are learning, never assume it would work the same as some other system you know, even if it does the same or shares some concepts.
E.g. when I was working at a newspaper, they changed the ad management system; ad vendors were used to give their customers special kinds of discounts and needed some strange workarounds where the old system was lacking. At first, management tried (or had IT dept try) to implement all the old stuff, until it became clear it just made no sense – vendors had to adapt to the new system (that was generally better and more flexible, but of course also lacking a few details).
When I recently switched from InDesign/Photoshop to Affinity Publisher/Photo, it was the same re-learning for me, and I’m still much slower with AP, also because I don’t use it daily any more like I was used with ID several years ago. E.g. I needed the experience of several print projects to get colors print right again – the whole color management and PDF export setup is just too different (without it looking too different).
I'm basically still using only LaTeX because I know which packages to use to do the things I want. Perhaps that *is* as good a reason as any to stay with LaTeX
yes it is
but it shouldn't be a barrier to learning ConTeXt which IME it is.
The barrier is in your head. Don’t assume ConTeXt is like LaTeX, but be amazed if it does. ;)
To take but one example: when wearing my linguist hat I deal with obscure scripts and languages, mostly dead languages, which no standard LaTeX index processor can handle (at least not out of the box) so I have my pile of Perl hacks which generate indices using Perl's excellent Unicode capabilities and some excellent modules written by other people.
I don’t know what you’re doing, but since ConTeXt can handle Unicode much better than LaTeX, many of your hacks might be dispensable. For others there might be better solutions, e.g. implement additional sorting mechanisms in Lua within ConTeXt. There should be no need for additional external index processing.
Admittedly it might be just me: I have a hard time knowing where to look in the likewise excellent Vim documentation too: what search terms to use. Finding a LaTeX solution to a problem with Google OTOH usually is pretty fast done — if you can describe your problem in prose you usually don't hit a wall.
Yes, and that’s again true for every system – you need to find your way through the documentation.
E.g. GNU LilyPond’s docs are great, but you need to know what’s in the Learning Manual, Reference Manual or extension docs, and that you also might look into the snippet repository LSR or OpenLilyLib.
You need to learn the lingo of each system, sometimes something has a strange name due to historical reasons or because the right term was ambiguous or unknown to the developers. – ConTeXt not only calls indexes registers (like also in German), but also imposition arranging...
With knowledge of TeX basics I did not mean a working knowledge of plain TeX but the actual basics: reserved characters, syntax, space after a command is ignored, a blank line makes a paragraph, that sort of things which are common to all flavors.
Yes and no – space handling of course, and, as Hans said, it helps to understand the box composition and expansion (I don’t really, and I guess also most LaTeX users don’t). Reserved characters are already misleading – ConTeXt has far less than LaTeX and uses direct Unicode input as far as possible.
Keep trying.
Hraban
On 5/1/21 12:02 am, BPJ wrote:
With knowledge of TeX basics I did not mean a working knowledge of plain TeX but the actual basics: reserved characters, syntax, space after a command is ignored, a blank line makes a paragraph, that sort of things which are common to all flavors.
This is where someone might find Joaquin's Introduction to ConTeXt most helpful.
Julian
Am Sun, 3 Jan 2021 23:59:14 +0100 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:
In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”,
You only need to follow a few days the questions e.g. on tex.sx to see that this is not true: Answers about LaTeX are much more varied than a simple "use this package" and often include new definitions or background explanations.
without the need to understand the commands and settings involved,
The fact that there are so many packages extending LaTeX actually means that there is *more* need to understand commands and settings than in a system like context where "most problems are solved with \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue]".
(But it also means that there are many people, who understand enough of the innards to write, to document and to explain packages, commands and settings.)
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
On 1/4/2021 2:18 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive. And there's nothing wrong with using primitives, assuming that one knows how they work (and in this case that a \relax does wonders).
One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow is kind of plain but decided to not waste time arguing that. There are actually not that many commands in 'plain' anyway. Much of plain tex is setting up math (and all macro packages support those symbolic names and the basic math structures), some fonts (all macro package set up some font system and maybe some aliases that make it easier for plain users), but as soon as one uses latex or context or ... some different output routine kicks in, table mechanisms show up, \item has a different meaning, etc. (The early macro packages were kind of plain themselves: demanding redefinition of internals and such.)
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Am Mon, 4 Jan 2021 15:30:43 +0100 schrieb Hans Hagen:
Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive.
Yes, sorry. I lost the "TeX" from the "(plain) TeX commands" from Henning.
One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow is kind of plain
Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex.
Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex.
I have calculated the number of primitives from the list made in "TeX Reference Manual" by David Bausum (of which there is a web version at https://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html).
According to that text the number of primitives is exactly 326. In my document I rounded it to "approximately 300".
On 1/4/2021 5:32 PM, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:
Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex.
I have calculated the number of primitives from the list made in "TeX Reference Manual" by David Bausum (of which there is a web version at https://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html).
According to that text the number of primitives is exactly 326. In my document I rounded it to "approximately 300".
That list is a bit old. In the meantime we got etex extensions, which adds a few more, and then pdftex ades some, as well as omega and after that of course luatex. In luametatex we dropped some, and added others, so there we currently have 770 primitives. The increase of number is partly due to the 166 extra math related primitives of which many deal with all kind of font related paraneters and inter-blob spacing.
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=2mm,width=30cm,align={verytolerant,nothyphenated,flushleft},foregroundstyle=\tttf] \startluacode local t = tex.primitives() table.sort(t) local n = 0 for i=1,#t do if string.find(t[i],"^U") then n =n + 1 end end context("%i / %i: % t",#t,n,t) \stopluacode \stopTEXpage
\stoptext
if yuou want to know if something is a primitive, say:
\meaningfull\vskip \par \meaningfull\relax \par \meaningfull\framed\par
and you get an idea (\meaningfull itself is a primitive, the more verbose \meaning, and there's also \meaningless which I let you figure out yourself; of course these add two primitives to the repertoire).
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Am 04.01.2021 um 15:30 schrieb Hans Hagen j.hagen@xs4all.nl:
On 1/4/2021 2:18 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive. And there's nothing wrong with using primitives, assuming that one knows how they work (and in this case that a \relax does wonders).
One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow is kind of plain but decided to not waste time arguing that. There are actually not that many commands in 'plain' anyway. Much of plain tex is setting up math (and all macro packages support those symbolic names and the basic math structures), some fonts (all macro package set up some font system and maybe some aliases that make it easier for plain users), but as soon as one uses latex or context or ... some different output routine kicks in, table mechanisms show up, \item has a different meaning, etc. (The early macro packages were kind of plain themselves: demanding redefinition of internals and such.)
I don’t know anything about Knuth’s Plain TeX, I always mean plain TeX. ;) And I mix up primitives and "basic" commands, because it doesn’t matter for me. My mistake.
What I meant: In ConTeXt code (by users and maybe only in old sources) I see a lot of TeX constructs, e.g. you’re using \def (TeX) and not \define (ConTeXt) because you know it makes no difference.
And when I can’t achieve the right vertical spacing with \blank[something], I use \vskip, because it works.
LaTeX replaces many basic commands/primitives (\vskip -> \vspace), ConTeXt might too, but with the same name.
Hraban
Am 04.01.2021 um 14:18 schrieb Ulrike Fischer news3@nililand.de:
Am Sun, 3 Jan 2021 23:59:14 +0100 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:
In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”,
You only need to follow a few days the questions e.g. on tex.sx to see that this is not true: Answers about LaTeX are much more varied than a simple "use this package" and often include new definitions or background explanations.
Yes, sorry, that was overly simplified.
Yes, there are many knowledgeable and helpful LaTeX users who throughly explain their suggestions.
But when I’m looking for LaTeX solutions, it very often breaks down to using the one or other package (with a few options or configurations provided by them).
without the need to understand the commands and settings involved,
The fact that there are so many packages extending LaTeX actually means that there is *more* need to understand commands and settings than in a system like context where "most problems are solved with \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue]".
(But it also means that there are many people, who understand enough of the innards to write, to document and to explain packages, commands and settings.)
Yes, but it’s in the concept of LaTeX that there is a gap between users and package writers.
I prefer to copy a few settings (and adapt them to my needs) over using a package that might do also other things or is incompatible with some other packages that I might need.
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
The discouragement sometimes sounds a bit harsh ;) – not your problem.
There are a few old ConTeXt users that use too much basic ("plain") TeX for my taste, esp. if there are better ways to solve their problems with simple ConTeXt commands.
All the best, Hraban
Hi Joaquín,
Here is a small suggestion, which would have a few different uses. The following link, which I copied from the index, should take you to the definition of \vbox:
https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A117%2C%22gen%...
This works at least in some browsers, or by passing the stuff after # as a suitable command-line argument to some PDF viewers.
So, it would be really nice to make those named destinations stable and readable, for instance
https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf#vbox
I suspect this is either a switch you turn on in ConTeXt, or something that would still need to be implemented as a feature.
Best, Augusto
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:00 AM Henning Hraban Ramm texml@fiee.net wrote:
Am 03.01.2021 um 22:24 schrieb Hans Hagen j.hagen@xs4all.nl:
On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if
there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and
then to context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are there 'from word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a motivation to write one.
I guess most ConTeXt users migrated from LaTeX at some point, so that guide would really make sense. But I can’t write it either, even if I’m also working with LaTeX (but just as a user of one special class).
If I run into a problem in LaTeX that I know to solve in ConTeXt, the approach is never right.
I think the similarities of LaTeX and ConTeXt are mostly misleading, you’re better off trying to forget everything and start anew.
In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”, without the need to understand the commands and settings involved, while in ConTeXt most problems are solved with \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue].
Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in ConTeXt.
Writing my book I have users of text processors (Word/LibreOffice) and layout applications (InDesign etc.) in mind, even if I assume that most readers (if I’ll ever publish it...) will come from LaTeX.
So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips /
suggestions and turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by those who make some transition or use alongside. The wiki is the place start with that.
So .. up to users.
Yes, and that means: up to users migrating from LaTeX and documenting their struggles.
Hraban
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net
Thanks, Joaquín. This is really amazing.
Denis
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: ntg-context ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Im Auftrag von Joaquín Ataz López Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Januar 2021 10:45 An: mailing list for ConTeXt users ntg-context@ntg.nl Betreff: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
Hello to all:
Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its original language can download the new version:
Both versions are available at the following links
Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation section of the CTAN repository.
-- Joaquín Ataz López Derecho Civil Universidad de Murcia
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg- context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net __________________________________________________________ _________________________
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:
Hello to all:
Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its original language can download the new version:
Both versions are available at the following links
Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation section of the CTAN repository.
This is an excellent and detailed introduction. I had briefly skimmed through the Spanish version when you had posted it earlier, but since I do not understand Spanish I could not follow it. Now have quickly read some parts of the English version, I find that the document is very well written and at the right level of detail and tone for a new user. Thank you for writing this.
Aditya
Thank you, Joaquin, for this wonderfully systematic bit of work. I wish I had had this three or four years ago.
There has been a bit of a discussion here about whether ConTeXt manuals should start from the assumption that the reader already is familiar with LaTeX or not. If I may cast a vote here: I recommend that authors *SHOULD NOT* assume such familiarity, because
(1) Knowledge of LaTeX is not just irrelevant, but can actually confuse.
(2) ConTeXt is a complete system in itself that is built up in a more consistent way than LaTeX. It does not depend on LaTeX in any way, and authors should not risk creating the impression that it does.
Of course there’s nothing wrong if someone were to write parallel materials for LaTeX users (‘ConTeXt for LaTeX Users’, or something of the sort). But basically LaTeX ought to be ignored completely. I, for one, do not want to have anything to do with LaTeX any more, now that ConTeXt is there.
Now that this new manual exists, I can more confidently recommend ConTeXt to colleagues.
Thanks once again!
Robert
On 03.01.21 10:45, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:
Hello to all:
Two months ago I informed to the list […]
-
Aditya Mahajan -
Alain Delmotte -
Augusto Stoffel -
BPJ -
Bruce Horrocks -
denis.maier＠ub.unibe.ch -
Garulfo -
Hans Hagen -
Henning Hraban Ramm -
jbf -
Joaquín Ataz López -
Kevin Vigouroux -
Mojca Miklavec -
Robert Zydenbos -
Saša Janiška -
Taco Hoekwater -
Ulrike Fischer