[NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

James Fisher jameshfisher at gmail.com
Thu Mar 4 20:44:39 CET 2010


Hi Luigi,

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:42 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:25 PM, James Fisher <jameshfisher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > lol; I thought this might come up.  I have a couple of replies to that:
> >
> > (1) First and most important: I'm not suggesting that we use TeX to
> document
> > things at all.  I'm suggesting that ConTeXt documentation should be
> > accessible to newcomers in the same format as 99% of all other projects:
> > good old HTML.
> Today HTML is still crude for a typographer but things can change with
> WOFF.
> You still can't show the potential of ConTeXt  with HTML, because main
> output is pdf .
>
>
I completely understand that typographically, HTML is crude -- if it wasn't,
I probably wouldn't be here at all; I'd write in HTML and print to PDF from
a browser. But I think that's misunderstanding what 'the potential of
ConTeXt' is.  ConTeXt was not created to produce documentation for ConTeXt.
People are not foolish enough to think, "if project X doesn't write its
documentation in X, there can't be much else it can do".  You don't write
Teach Yourself French in the French language.

(Also: WOFF will only help inasmuch as we can force quality typefaces on
people (no improvements in e.g. line-breaking algorithms, microtypography,
and what have you).  But that's off the issue.)


> >On the web (which you are), HTML is king.
> On a printing house( which I'm) , PDF is the king.
>
>
Ok, I said I'd put the HTML/PDF thing to rest, but I'll try and get my
thoughts across again:
I found ConTeXt via the web.  Almost every single other software project
I've ever found, I've found via the web.  I did not find ConTeXt via a
printing house (perhaps others do; I'm getting the impression I'm a bit of
an outlier in this community).  HTML is typographically crude, but, and this
is important, *informationally*, HTML (and the web and friends) is far from
crude.  The web is not a vast flat collection of PDFs.  It's the
unchallenged superglue of the web, which is where I feel that the community
should properly lie.  Now, it's quite possible that other people disagree
with me here, and that I'm factually wrong -- for example if the ConTeXt
community predominantly lies in the 'real-world', with gatherings, seminars,
with handed-out printed leaflets and manuals, with overhead slide
presentations -- in *that* case, then yes, PDF is king.


> >TeX and PDFs are
> > no replacement for the interconnected power of the web.  When I want a
> quick
> > piece of information in <10 seconds, I do not want to consult a
> > hand-collected folder of PDFs, or google for it and wait the age for a
> PDF
> > to load.
> I grep the code.
> It works even offline and in less than 1 second.
>
>
Yes. But the web works (albeit only while online, but who is ever offline?)
in less than a second too, and the web is far more than a 'World Wide
Grep'.  It's an unimaginably vast cross-referenced semantically aware net
with search engines of huge processing power.  Executing `grep
interpretation of grave character *' unfortunately does not give quite the
same result.


> > That kind of feeling, I guess, is the reason that the
> > contextgarden wiki exists.  But nor is Mediawiki is really not the most
> > appropriate way to document a project.  Wikis are messy and unstructured.
> > They don't lend themselves well to the hierarchical kind of structure
> > appropriate for representing a codebase.  So I'm suggesting that ConTeXt
> be
> > documented using a typical established documentation system.
> I disagree.
> minimals should be self-cointained.
> a documentation system not done in  Context can introduce a useless
> dependency.
>
> Anyway
> even if there is already
> http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/scmsvn/
> (which is only usefula as testbed, not for documentation)
>
> or if we will have something like cseq one day
> (see
> http://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html, possible made in
> automatic fashion from code base)
>
>
This looks lovely.


>
> or a wiki book
> (see
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
> apropos of "Mediawiki is really not the most
> appropriate way to document a project" )
>
> it will be not enough --- a good starting point, of course.
>
>
> In the end, one needs to understand the language, his semantic and
> study the code.
> With TeXBook, a couple of manuals from pragma (cont-en, metafun) and
> the code you are ok
> (well also ~1000 pages of pdf specs. are not bad and also  some book
> about fonts ...).
>

Mmm, yes, you've made quite a lot of demands there on the curious programmer
having stumbled across ConTeXt ...


> Others are articles, and they are ok too.
> TeX is a macro language. There are almost ~1000 macros , and maybe
> ~500 macros in ConTeXt.
> Even if we are able to "documents" them in some manner, understanding
> them and their relations
> is a matter of study the code.
>
>
I don't think so.  The "just study the code" approach shows an awfully
austere, reductionist philosophy.  Humans understand things from the top
down.  It's the computers that work from the bottom up.


>
> >> About model of development: one developer is not so strange afterall .
> >
> > I'm not sure what your point is here.  That user contribution leads to
> > 'featuritis'?  I totally understand that being 'frozen' is not a bad
> thing;
> > it effectively means 'having reached a state of perfection for the
> defined
> > task' -- I don't think this has a connection with having one developer.
> > More developers == faster rate of approach to the limit of perfection.
>
> No, not necessarily and not in this situation.
> For TeX frozen  means no new features, only  bugfixes;
> it means that the language is maintained and backward compatibility is
> very important.
> (about 80% of scientific articles are in TeX, so backward
> compatibility is really important) .
> It doesn't mean that the language is perfect.
> To me frozen simply says that "it's time to explore the semantic of
> the language rather than
> add new  features"
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> This model doesn't imply that you cannot contribute to the code base
> >> but only that all contributions need to be  validate (and possible
> >> rejected) and integrate by developer,.
> >> You can also contribute with third part modules, but they are not in
> >> base code and in case of conflicts code base wins.
> >>
> >
> > Sure thing -- revision control doesn't hinder that at all.  If Hans
> doesn't
> > want to merge someone else's changes to his (authoritative) copy of the
> > repo, then he doesn't have to.  DVCS != chaos.
> One developer assure that there is exactly one version e no forks
> (friendly or not).
> This is also ok because there is no need for forks (afterall none are
> thinking to fork LaTeX2e):
>

I think you're thinking of 'forking' as something dangerous (yeah, the word
sounds painful), as something that will fragment the community, as something
that destroys the concept of 'authority'.  It's really not.  Where you get
forking you get merging at roughly the same rate.


> > If Hans doesn't
> > want to merge someone else's changes to his (authoritative) copy of the
> > repo, then
> the changes are rejected from the code base.
>
> I'm not saying that a dcvs is useless for documentation or manuals.
> But without contributors a dcvs can be practically useless,
> and the only contributors for manuals actually are Taco for luatex and
> Hans for Context mkiv.
>
>
Why are they the only contributors?


>
>
>
> --
> luigi
>
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