Am 15.07.2020 um 10:31 schrieb Hans Hagen : you can leave the commands for last ... in an french user interface the english commands will work ok, but keys/values/elements have to be translated

Are the other interfaces (Dutch, German, Czech...) actually still working? AFAIR I tried the German one in the beginning (MkII) but gave up since all the documentation is in English, and nobody could help you with anything but English and Dutch. WRT your musings (“What’s in a name“): translated interfaces look funny, and I guess they make only sense in a very limited environment. E.g. Marei’s LaTeX3 system I’m working with uses German commands, but it’s focused on technical documentation for one company, and we’re not supposed to use general LaTeX commands. In my German book I’ll only show the English interface, otherwise I’d need to write even more... @Garulfo: Do you have a special use case in mind, or do you do this for fun? Best, Hraban

Am 15.07.2020 um 14:28 schrieb Hans Hagen :

On 7/15/2020 2:14 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

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Am 15.07.2020 um 10:31 schrieb Hans Hagen : you can leave the commands for last ... in an french user interface the english commands will work ok, but keys/values/elements have to be translated Are the other interfaces (Dutch, German, Czech...) actually still working? are germans still lipsyncing movies (or even foreign news), translating computerbooks in german (large secxtions in bookshops), translating thrillers and novels ... or has that all stopped working

I don’t understand the comparison. It’s a difference if I can enjoy movies or books, if I can understand textbooks or manuals in a foreign language or if and why I’d use translated programming or markup commands. For me, lip syncing can make movies confusing, since the sound doesn’t match the lip movements – I prefer original language with subtitles (for German and English, that is).

anyway, it is supposed to work and whenever kids have to use context doing it in dutch is more fun (one just learns them the handfull of commands they need)

I’m not against these interfaces, but without translated documentation a translated interface doesn’t make a lot of sense (to me). E.g. LilyPond docs have several translations (it’s a huge effort!), but besides note names there’s no interface translation. (I’m glad I can use c d e notes, while others prefer do re mi etc. I could even use German h/b instead of b/bes, but I got used to the Dutch default – for input only; in my songbooks I stick to German chord names.) Translated documentation is important, it lowers the threshold for many users. That’s why I’m writing my book in German. But once you grow out of the basics, you need to be able to find your way in manuals and wiki or ask questions here, where everything’s in English. With our small developer and user base we struggle enough with keeping documentation current. – I’m very happy with and thankful for the big effort that goes into the wiki at the moment! – Maybe we (i.e. Taco, Paul etc.) can extend the automatisms so far, that we also can document the translated interfaces that way, even if the manually added content would stay in English. I never heard that kids would use ConTeXt at all, but perhaps I just missed you talking about it. Sorry, Garulfo, didn’t want to hijack your thread. Best regards, Hraban

On 7/18/2020 8:56 PM, Garulfo wrote:

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@Garulfo: Do you have a special use case in mind, or do you do this for fun?

"for fun" isn't quite right, although there's probably some truth to it. Actually, translating 6,300 keywords isn't fun, and it's even worst when you don't really master the material behind...

but i guess you learn a lot in the process

The point is that I am sad to not be able to offer the use of ConTeXt (such a great piece of software) to friends and childrens. And ConTeXt complexity or ConTeXt documentation are not the first hurdles.

indeed (which is why for instance we use the dutch for e.g. family members) most users actually can do with a limited set of commands to start with ... and writing a tutorial for that is doable ... it's still on my agenda to come up with something for kids and translated interfaces are needed for that (unless we ditch all languages for english .. but if that happens, we can actually do without tex because a large portion, at least in context, is dedicated to dealing with scripts and languages)

When you start with a new software, a new methodology, having first to struggle with vocabulary in a foreign language is definitively a (BIG) thorn in your side (in fact, usually you just don't start).

Many popular softwares offer multi-language early in their development (netscape / firefox, scratch, wordpress, krita...). ConTeXt did it, the infrastructure is ready, the translations exist, at least partially or at an early stage.

indeed, it was there right from the start ... as a historic note: the reason what that we had a subsystem for chemistry which could be configured usinng key values (we're talking early nineties) and in order to be used in german we made the multi lingual interface (after that the english and others lists were added) .. the german was done with Tobias Burnus who also helped with the early multi language support) context goes along way back ...

And when I started to use it, I thought that it could easily be improved and updated without requiring any Tex / Lua skills.

One remark : I was wrong, I spend hours to put all the content (from mult-def and context-en.xml) in a simple csv table and building quick&dirty scripts to put it back in mult-def.

(normally i then put up some music or a movies i already saw before in the background or some podcast or ...)

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With our small developer and user base we struggle enough with keeping documentation current.

Struggle likely appears about not-so-trivial needs.

It's a shame not to use it in Italian / Russian / Chinese / French etc... for a letter, for a 10 to 20 pages report, for an internal note.

exactly ... (btw, tex promotion is often tight to scientific publishing but the interesting fact there is that as soon as you drop the formulas it often doesn't look that pretty any more .. another property of context is that users should be able to make a nice layout)

All the more so as the software allows it. The point is that the interface just deserves a minimal update and documentation, and that, as you point it, the small developer and user base doesn't have time to do it. indeed, and sorry for not keeping it up to date

Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Garulfo schrieb am 19.07.2020 um 13:23:

Hi Wolfgang,

still working on the translation... (Hans pointed out the possibilities due to the support of UTF-8, which are just great for french language)

zip: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:MWE_test_itemize_french.zip

I have difficulties with a simple example file: MWE_test_itemize_french.tex

% interface=fr \configurerdétailler[style=gras] \débuttexte \débutdétailler[a] \élément Texte premiere \élément Texte second \findétailler \fintexte

It works properly with "minimal" modifications of mult-def.lua file: mult-def.lua.initial+diffminimalsetupitemize https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:MWE_test_itemize_french.zip

but with a more complete mult-def.lua file: mult-def.lua.complet

I get "The control sequence at the end of the top line of your error message was never \def'ed. You can just continue as I'll forget about whatever was undefined."

Could you please help me find my way around: what do I need to pay attention to so that my other modifications don't break the whole mechanism?

Everything works as expected but you have set a string for the endsetup element which has become part of your \setupitemize command. Setup commands are created in the following way: <setup string> + <name of the instance> + <endsetup string> this creates in your case the command \configurerdétaillerfinconfigurer As you don't want this leave the value of endsetup empty. Wolfgang

On 7/19/20 8:27 PM, Garulfo wrote:

Thanks a lot !!

I'm beginning to be able to typeset some simple example without any struggle.

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:modele_bonjour_le_monde.pdf

The input file is attached in this mail.

Congratulation for your excellent work, Garulfo. Your translation is really amazing.

I have only one remaining issue with this example: the indentation. Despite \setupindenting[medium, yes], the paragraphs are not systematically indented, and I don't really understand the pattern behind it.

The default is "indentnext=no" for \setupheads and \setupfloats. The pattern is clear: see what comes before the unindented paragraph. BTW, I don’t understand this: \langueprincipale[fr] \langue[fr] Is \mainlanguage not enough? (This would also set \language.) \mainlanguage[fr] \starttext \startTEXpage[offset=2em] mainlanguage: {\tt\currentmainlanguage} language: {\tt\currentlanguage} \stopTEXpage \stoptext I hope it helps, Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk

file name can be confusing, it's not yet complete Type Names Translations Achievement commands 3962 954 24% constants 841 708 84% elements 26 25 DONE setupstrings 135 56 41% variables 1330 680 51% 6294 2423 39% Following your feedbacks, I will update it and improve its consistency. As you advised, I will try first to complete constants and variables (keys/values) during July and August. And, if it makes sense for ConTeXt's community to use it as a "new" or an "updated" french interface, I may try to produce a 40~50 pages documentation for the basics commands (during 2020 S2): • \starttext • \startchapter, \startsection, \starttitle, \startsubject, \setuphead, \completecontent • \em, \bf, \cap, • \startitemize, \startitem, \starthead, • \placefigure, \externalfigure, • \placetable, \starttable,\starttabulate, \setupTABLE, \bTABLE • \index, \completeindex • \setuplayout, \setupfootertexts et \setupheadertexts • \definedescription, \defineenumeration • \at, \in Anyway, thanks again for your support. Le 19/07/2020 à 22:55, Hans Hagen a écrit :

On 7/19/2020 8:27 PM, Garulfo wrote:

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file: mult-def.lua.complet i'll have a look at it

Hans

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On 7/20/2020 12:04 AM, Garulfo wrote:

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And, if it makes sense for ConTeXt's community to use it as a "new" or an "updated" french interface, I may try to produce a 40~50 pages documentation for the basics commands (during 2020 S2):

or even better, I will try to use Paul + Taco + Wolfgang documentation framework through the wiki. fwiw:

the topline of a document can have % interface=fr which will trigger the right run Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Garulfo schrieb am 19.07.2020 um 20:27:

Thanks a lot !!

I'm beginning to be able to typeset some simple example without any struggle.

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:modele_bonjour_le_monde.pdf

The input file is attached in this mail.

I have only one remaining issue with this example: the indentation. Despite \setupindenting[medium, yes], the paragraphs are not systematically indented, and I don't really understand the pattern behind it.

The point is also visible on the original english version https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:Hello-world.pdf

Nice work but a few changes are needed: - You change the english text for the endsetup element which should be empty - A few commands should remain english, e.g. \AfterPar or \newsystemmode because they are only used in the core or in modules which should work independent of the interface language - A few of the setupstring entries are broken, e.g. cd:font appear twice and the second entry is wrong - It would be nice to have a consistent language order, in the existing entries you moved french to the bottom but in new entries you move french to the top Wolfgang

I guess pdp is "Pied de page". I don't speak French, but it is close enough to Spanish. Maybe we should do a translation to Spanish too. Congratulations for your colossal effort, Garulfo. Jairo :) El dom., 19 de jul. de 2020 11:49 p. m., Aditya Mahajan escribió:

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020, Garulfo wrote:

...

Thanks a lot !!

I'm beginning to be able to typeset some simple example without any struggle.

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/File:modele_bonjour_le_monde.pdf

The input file is attached in this mail.

Thanks for all the hard work. Some minor comments on the sample file (some of them also apply to the English version).

1. You don't need

\configurercouleurs[état=activé]

That is the default in MkIV and LMTX.

2. Also:

\utiliserURL[wiki] [http://wiki.contextgarden.net][][wiki \ConTeXt\ ]

It may be better to use `\ConTeXT{}` with no space afterwards.

3. Why use abbreviated names:

\configurerpdp[style=\italique] \configurertextespdp[\date \hfill Modèle \ConTeXt]

I am guessing `pdp` is somehow an abbreviation of `footer`. One of the things that I really like about ConTeXt compared to LaTeX is that there are no funny abbreviations.

It might be better to use

\configurertextespdp[\date][Modèle \ConTeXt]

4. It may be better to reword \citer. That might create confusion with the bibliography commands which use \cite.

5. I am not sure why you include an example of buffers in this document. If it was just to have some filler text, I think that after all this work you can persuade Hans to include a sample file from a French author in the distribution :-)

Aditya

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net

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