On 9/19/07, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:

Don't forget to incorporate tex-gyre, including otf's!

Is the installation really that hard? I'd rather have a tarball to be unzipped over the directory tree than have a constantly growing 'minimal' installation. --Joel

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:33:42 -0600, Joel C. Salomon wrote:

...

On 9/19/07, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:

...

Don't forget to incorporate tex-gyre, including otf's! Is the installation really that hard?

The last time I installed TeX-Gyre only two fonts worked and the rest did not.

The point is that debugging when things go wrong takes time and some of us are just too busy to have to to debug every little thing. It seems to me that TeX-Gyre is one of those things that should work out of the box, like lm.

sure, but since they are under development, names change, locations change etc i don't look into it on a daily basis (already overloaded)

...

I'd rather have a tarball to be unzipped over the directory tree than have a constantly growing 'minimal' installation.

Finally, mswincontext.zip is not really "minimal" but "maximal" ;-) Updates to TeX-Gyre could be supported as a package a la cont-tmf.zip of course.

we had that a while but inconsistencies showed up Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:46:32 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

...

Hello,

Waiting impatiently for updated mswincontext. Would it be available from Pragma tomorrow or when?

i need to update a few more binaries, and mojca and i have to fix/test a couple of xetex things (new xetex bin too)

Hans

Hi Hans, can you also add ini files for the plain TeX formats with XeTeX, pdfTeX and LuaTeX and the fonts.conf file for XeTeX. I prefer plain TeX for test files or simple documents where I can live without ConTeXt and this should work out of the box and not only after I create the files by myself. Wolfgang

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:45:25 -0600, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

can you also add ini files for the plain TeX formats with XeTeX, pdfTeX

Hey, you lot! They are supposed to be "minimals". If you suggest adding something, I really think you should suggest removing something at the same time :-)

I think many of us see mswincontext.zip as more "maximal", not "minimal". For me, mswincontext IS my TeX distribution. And the free community fonts like TeX-Gyre should be in there by default, without having to spend hours configuring packages from outside pragma when they don't work ;-) Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:45:25 +0200 Taco Hoekwater wrote:

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:46:32 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

...

Hello,

Waiting impatiently for updated mswincontext. Would it be available from Pragma tomorrow or when? i need to update a few more binaries, and mojca and i have to fix/test a couple of xetex things (new xetex bin too)

Hans

Hi Hans,

can you also add ini files for the plain TeX formats with XeTeX, pdfTeX

Hey, you lot! They are supposed to be "minimals". If you suggest adding something, I really think you should suggest removing something at the same time :-)

How about the bib module :-) Wolfgang

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:25:35 -0600, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

...

Hey, you lot! They are supposed to be "minimals". If you suggest adding something, I really think you should suggest removing something at the same time :-) How about the bib module :-)

LOL, best joke I've heard all week...

Err, well, you had BETTER be joking ;-)

well, if someone keys in my books in a bib file, i'll make a lua variant -) actually, i may look into that some day (when i'm bored) because it will make bib handling much easier Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

hmm .... how many books do you have? :)

That's not how you should have asked it :-) You should have said yes first and then looked for someone to type the bib file if Hans really has too much books ;-) Or you could distribute the task ... Arthur

Taco Hoekwater wrote:

Arthur Reutenauer wrote:

...

...

hmm .... how many books do you have? :) That's not how you should have asked it :-) You should have said yes first and then looked for someone to type the bib file if Hans really has too much books ;-) Or you could distribute the task ...

Really, we (=I) should move away from bibtex.

What I really want is a module that reads XML databases by using lua xpath for item extraction (inline in mkiv, with a standalone lua script in mkii), along with a script to convert legacy bibtex databases into XML databases.

I have Mods in mind for the database format.

we can discuss that in mode detail as it makes a nice example of using the xml features in mkiv if we have the database format decided, i can make a basic framework and you/others can define the bib styles of course this is mkiv only Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Quoting "Joel C. Salomon" :

On 9/20/07, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

Really, we (=I) should move away from bibtex.

Has anyone on the list tried CrossTeX (http://crosstex.sourceforge.net/)? I've successfully used it with LaTeX; no idea how much trouble it would be to use with ConTeXt.

The last time I tried, I could not get it to work on Windows. It seemed that certain paths were hard coded, it wanted a /usr/bin/something to exist. I do not know python, and could not figure out how to correct it. This was about 4 months ago, I never checked if things have changed. Aditya

Aditya Mahajan wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

well, if someone keys in my books in a bib file, i'll make a lua variant -)

hmm .... how many books do you have? :)

btw, one thing that i noticed is that more and more (scientific) books are typeset using systems that do interchar spacing (even when not needed) which makes reading less fun; there are occasional exceptions of course; we could have a database of books with comments on their quality Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

...

...

can you also add ini files for the plain TeX formats with XeTeX, pdfTeX Hey, you lot! They are supposed to be "minimals". If you suggest adding something, I really think you should suggest removing something at the same time :-)

But I would agree that it would be nice to be able to run plain (pdf)TeX and plain metapost with minimals. To be honest, almost everything is there already, with the only exception that the formats aren't generated automatically as they are in TeX Live for example.

Having pdftex.fmt, xetex.fmt and mpost.mem generated automatically would be great, and not much overhead. (Perhaps a file or two are needed for xetex.fmt, not much more.

as taco mentioned ... adding stuff will never end then ... could be another 'download option' btw, the plain version of luatex has the same basic file stuff as mkiv, so it does zip files and alike, some day also open type Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:45:45 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:46:32 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

...

Hello,

Waiting impatiently for updated mswincontext. Would it be available from Pragma tomorrow or when? i need to update a few more binaries, and mojca and i have to fix/test a couple of xetex things (new xetex bin too)

Hans

Hi Hans,

can you also add ini files for the plain TeX formats with XeTeX, pdfTeX and LuaTeX and the fonts.conf file for XeTeX. I prefer plain TeX for test files or simple documents where I can live without ConTeXt and this should work out of the box and not only after I create the files by myself.

what's wrong with

texexec --make --all --xetex plain

it could be just a matter of taste but I prefer to call just pdftex or xetex and the engine with the preloaded plain TeX formats, this is shorter because the format files pdftex.fmt or xetex.fmt are loaded by default with the engines and xetex has sets also charclasses to a few charcaters in his own plain format.

and alike? i have nu clue what ini files are for

nearly the same thing you do with your cont-de, cont-en files, the load plain.tex and seta few option like pdfoutput=1 in pdftex.ini. A simple pdftex.ini could look like \input plain \pdfoutput=1 \dump I know the ini files from w32tex and don't know how the other TeX distributions like TeXlive or MikTeX handle the formats but I like this system and the ini files also in the ConTeXt minimals. Wolfgang

On 9/19/07, Hans Hagen wrote:

btw,

pdftex --ini &plain \\pdfoutput=1 \dump

can do the same for you, but as said .. if the minimals would have plain formats they would default to dvi anyway so it would be of no help to you

pdftex.fmt and mpost.mem would be perfectly fine. No need for plain.fmt (I guess). (And maybe xetex.fmt as a sugar, although that one might need some additional files.) It might be extremely simple to generate format the way you describe above, but perhaps texexec --make pdftex mpost xetex could have done the the same job instead (since people are used to it)? Mojca

Hans Hagen wrote:

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

...

...

btw,

pdftex --ini &plain \\pdfoutput=1 \dump

can do the same for you, but as said .. if the minimals would have plain formats they would default to dvi anyway so it would be of no help to you

On 9/19/07, Hans Hagen wrote: pdftex.fmt and mpost.mem would be perfectly fine. No need for plain.fmt (I guess). (And maybe xetex.fmt as a sugar, although that one might need some additional files.)

pdftex --ini -fmt=pdftex plain.tex \\pdfoutput=1 \dump

probably does that, but as said, everyone wants his/her own variant (patterns to start with -)

There is no doubt that plain is useful. I always create the plain Knuth format for luatex and pdftex by hand, and while it would be nice to have it done automatically, it is not that much work, and all real input files are there (.ini's are a commandline convenience). If I understood correctly, plain xetex really needs something extra? If that is so, than perhaps that file should be added. Mojca, what's up with that? On dev-context, I have already proposed the removal of a number of binaries, so I can make that request :-) Best wishes, Taco

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:18:45 +0200 "Mojca Miklavec" wrote:

On 9/20/07, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

...

...

btw,

pdftex --ini &plain \\pdfoutput=1 \dump

can do the same for you, but as said .. if the minimals would have plain formats they would default to dvi anyway so it would be of no help to you

On 9/19/07, Hans Hagen wrote: pdftex.fmt and mpost.mem would be perfectly fine. No need for plain.fmt (I guess). (And maybe xetex.fmt as a sugar, although that one might need some additional files.)

pdftex --ini -fmt=pdftex plain.tex \\pdfoutput=1 \dump

probably does that, but as said, everyone wants his/her own variant (patterns to start with -)

There is no doubt that plain is useful. I always create the plain Knuth format for luatex and pdftex by hand, and while it would be nice to have it done automatically, it is not that much work, and all real input files are there (.ini's are a commandline convenience).

(In case of XeTeX, it's slightly more that a single line to be typed :)

...

If I understood correctly, plain xetex really needs something extra? If that is so, than perhaps that file should be added. Mojca, what's up with that?

xetex.ini looks like that:

\catcode`\{=1 \catcode`\}=2 \catcode`\#=6 \catcode`\^=7 \catcode`\@=11

\input unicode-letters

\let\s@vef@nt=\font ... some stuff here \lowercase{\def\sk@pf@nt\preloaded=#1^^A{\endgroup}}

\input etex.src

% restore the \font command and undefine other stuff \catcode`\@=11 \let\font=\s@vef@nt ... some more stuff here

\dump \endinput

So one additionally needs: - (possibly modified) xetex.ini itself - unicode-letters.tex (could be replaced by enco-utf.tex, though I just figured out that there's more in unicode-letters than in enco-utf, but in that case enco-utf is that one which should be fixed)

this is not possible with the 0.997dev version because it presets charclasses (a new feature in XeTeX) for a few CJK characters

- etex.src (btw: why is that one only used in xetex, but not in pdfTeX?)

this is also used for the pdftex format in w32tex

- tex-text.tec (which was missing until now but needs to be added anyway) - hmmm ... no idea about what is needed for hyphenation (but I guess that patterns from ConTeXt could be used as well)

I will test once I have the rest, but it would be really handy to have the three plain formats (pdfTeX, XeTeX and mpost available; plus luatex if needed).

...

On dev-context, I have already proposed the removal of a number of binaries, so I can make that request :-)

;) 3-times hurray for Taco :)

Mojca

Wolfgang

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

...

...

So one additionally needs: - (possibly modified) xetex.ini itself - unicode-letters.tex (could be replaced by enco-utf.tex, though I

context does not use that file (plain may use it) we can indeed use enco-utf for plain as well (also defines some named chars) context does not depend on any tex file outside the base path

...

...

just figured out that there's more in unicode-letters than in enco-utf, but in that case enco-utf is that one which should be fixed)

depends on the kind of error -) enco-utf uses info from unicode tables (character categories)

...

this is not possible with the 0.997dev version because it presets charclasses (a new feature in XeTeX) for a few CJK characters

I saw some new additions when I took a look.

This means that enco-utf needs to be updated once hans gets the new binaries from Akira :)

depends, if we don't use these new features .. (yet)

...

...

- etex.src (btw: why is that one only used in xetex, but not in pdfTeX?) this is also used for the pdftex format in w32tex

because i cannot imagine a macro package to use the content of that file

I will take a look at w32tex then.

It would be really handy to have those three plain formats.

well, only is if it is not adding too much to the minimals, (and formats to be generated by users) if you want such formats, we need dedicated files to make them, like pdftex-plain.tex and such (after all, we want predictable stuff) for initializing them Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

THis is a nice feature for our own simple plain documents but nothing for ConTeXt because there is no replacement in pdfTeX/luaTeX but it would be nice to have also something to use different fonts for latin, greek, CJK without using environments and switch to them with only the right characters.

I want such a feature because CJK fonts have sometimes ugly latin characters and I want to use another font for them, I know this did happen in the current ConTeXt version but there should be no difference in fonts for CJK and the rest. Both should be defined with typescripts, one can use one fonts for both or select one for CJK and another one for the rest.

i dunno what this featurs is but if it has to do with some kind of automatism for switching fonts depending on chars, then it has to wait till i have something in place for luatex (using virtual fonts btw, basics are there actually), and then we can look if we can use the same high level interface to mimick this in xetex; it's ok to have the same high level interface with slightly different behaviour, as with font features

...

...

...

...

- etex.src (btw: why is that one only used in xetex, but not in pdfTeX?) this is also used for the pdftex format in w32tex because i cannot imagine a macro package to use the content of that file

...

I will take a look at w32tex then.

It would be really handy to have those three plain formats. well, only is if it is not adding too much to the minimals, (and formats to be generated by users)

I have nothing against to make another archive cont-pln with all the file we need for the plain formats.

no problem if we need what should go in there

...

if you want such formats, we need dedicated files to make them, like pdftex-plain.tex and such (after all, we want predictable stuff) for initializing them

Hans

the file name for the format should math the engine name because it will be loaded with engine by default if you call it, e.g. pdftex myfile with process the file myfile with the format file pdftex.fmt

sure, but that's why you can have a different formatname and filename that generates it, so you can have blabla.tex being used for generating the format pdftex.fmt (also, since one has to move files anyway, renaming isno big deal either) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

Version 0.997 of XeTeX introduced a new concept to assign every character a class value. You can define rules what should happen if you switch for example from class 1 to class 2 and another one if you do the same in reverse order. The commands for this action are saved in token register and came into action if this class switch appear in the document.

ok, i remember jonathan talking about it at bachotek

the unicode-letters file from XeTeX define a class for quotation, punctutation ... in CJK and another one for the other CJK characters and define spacing and linebreaking between normal characters and punctuation now by the class number (you did something similiar in your chinese module but used active characters instead).

the problem with such mechanisms is limited options for lookahead and look back

The XeTeX reference manual has a simple example of this concept on page 10 and 11.

http://tug.ctan.org/info/xetexref/XeTeX-reference.pdf

can't this be done in LuaTeX with nodes (or what you mentioned for your color modell) or something similar.

injecting tokens into the nodelist is no option, since at that stage tokenization already has been done; so it should happen earlier, during tokenization, which can be kind of messy, because even then we're talking of a\beta c -> a\char[beta]c (no further expansion) -> inject expanded stuff before, after each chartoken or \char token -> convert tokens to nodes sure, i can implement such an injector (since it's tokens, it should haven in the input stream somehow, operating on node lists is kind of messy in that case because tokens need to be expanded) but we're not going to use that method in mkiv. It's one of those areas where xetex and luatex support differs a lot.

but I am too lazy to rename files or create them always by hand with every update ...

that's what scripting is fore, after all, format generation in tex engines is not automated at all (one has to manage moving fmt files to the right place anyway) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/23/07, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

this would be nice because many chinese and japanese fonts have very ugly characters for normal latin texts and would be nice to choose another font for them.

The second point is some it often neccesary to choose differents fonts for arabic, greek ... and this method can used to switch to the corresponding font without inserting font switching commands in the text but handle this with character classes.

I guess that in LuaTeX you can "compose your own font" on the fly. So you can say "please take this region from Arial, another region from some Greek fonts, and yet another from Chineese, perhaps some more characters from somewhere else ... And then you can use a single font for everything. (Don't ask me how this can be done, though.) Mojca

Arthur Reutenauer wrote:

...

I guess that in LuaTeX you can "compose your own font" on the fly.

That's the virtual fonts Hans mentioned (like a vf in good ol' TeX, but on the fly, as you say). See section 5.2 of the LuaTeX manual (pp. 70-72 as of September 18th), especially the last one with an example.

for those interested in the development history of luatex (and way it evolves) ... http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf (occasionally chapters are added; it's also one of our standard tests for new luatex binaries and mkiv formats) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:45:41 -0600, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

...

On 9/23/07, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

this would be nice because many chinese and japanese fonts have very ugly characters for normal latin texts and would be nice to choose another font for them.

The second point is some it often neccesary to choose differents fonts for arabic, greek ... and this method can used to switch to the corresponding font without inserting font switching commands in the text but handle this with character classes. I guess that in LuaTeX you can "compose your own font" on the fly. So you can say "please take this region from Arial, another region from some Greek fonts, and yet another from Chineese, perhaps some more characters from somewhere else ... And then you can use a single font for everything. (Don't ask me how this can be done, though.)

Let's get even more funky: we could define "text direction classes" such that switching from LR to RL automatically switches from, say, the latin group (or cyrillic) to the arabic group (or hebrew), and direction switching could be done using the appropriate unicode characters instead of control sequences (ie, unicode direction charaters should be made active).

didn't i send you the code for that trick a while ago? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

On 9/23/07, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

this would be nice because many chinese and japanese fonts have very ugly characters for normal latin texts and would be nice to choose another font for them.

The second point is some it often neccesary to choose differents fonts for arabic, greek ... and this method can used to switch to the corresponding font without inserting font switching commands in the text but handle this with character classes.

I guess that in LuaTeX you can "compose your own font" on the fly. So you can say "please take this region from Arial, another region from some Greek fonts, and yet another from Chineese, perhaps some more characters from somewhere else ... And then you can use a single font for everything. (Don't ask me how this can be done, though.)

the code is there, but i need to make a proper user interface in context for which i need some "really deep thoughts" Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Joel C. Salomon wrote:

On 9/19/07, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

i need to update a few more binaries, and mojca and i have to fix/test a couple of xetex things (new xetex bin too)

So the minimal distribution will come with mkii, mkiii, and mkiv? Thanks!

well, mkiii is something virtual -) pdftex/xetex support is in the tex+mkii files luatex support is in the tex+mkiv files the deviattion of xetex from pdftex is currently not large enough to add mkiii files the context zip will always have it all

One question: does the bundled LuaTeX track the current (semi)stable LuaTeX releases?

sure, when i make zips i add the bins that i use however, in the near future minimals will be delivered differently, rsynced from the contextgarden and optionally be way more minimal, esp with regards to fonts: pdftex: no opentype, less afm files, gyre instead of old, lm type1 (only encodings that make sense) xetex: only opentype + math luatex: idem of course one can merge all Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------