2007/12/8, Henning Hraban Ramm :

Am 2007-12-07 um 19:17 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...

Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean, but I always use \quote and \quotation and sometimes also change the language according to my text -- did you mean that with "active quote stuff"? Or just that strange Italian (or French?) quoting style with quotation marks in front of every line? Or something completely different?

I think he mean the old methods write for example umlauts and other accents. You write "a to get ä, "s to get ß ... The last user how needed this suport for german was Steffen Wolfrum but the active characters are disabled by default and ConTeXt has it's commands to allow hyphens before compund words. Wolfgang

Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

Am 2007-12-07 um 19:17 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...

Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean, but I always use \quote and \quotation and sometimes also change the language according to my text -- did you mean that with "active quote stuff"? Or just that strange Italian (or French?) quoting style with quotation marks in front of every line? Or something completely different?

"u -> becoming uumlaut ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, My personal view is, that we should focus on utf and where necessary on good exeption handling. Once you type your documents directly in utf, most of the language specific things are directly ok. Others like French spacing or language dependent quoting and alike can be handled with the language- switch... Willi On Dec 8, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

On Dec 7, 2007 7:17 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Hi,

As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...

enco-fsl can go away (in mkii as well), but not lang-sla.mki* :)

When looking into enco-fde (the same is true for Slovenian and Croatian):

\def\setupDElanguage {\setuplanguage [\s!de] [\c!leftsentence=\leftguillemot, \c!rightsentence=\rightguillemot, \c!leftsubsentence=\leftsubguillemot, \c!rightsubsentence=\rightsubguillemot]}

I have suggested another way of handling that a few days ago (no conclusions met).

Discretionaries should be handled by LuaTeX itself, right? So I guess that they're not really needed if they find their way into mkiv.

Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to write that way before someone has told me about \usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}

I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's not up to me.

Mojca ______________________________________________________________________ _____________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ______________________________________________________________________ _____________

BOEDE Book and Electronic Document Engineering Willi Egger w.egger@boede.nl KvK 17138708

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 11:07:45PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to write that way before someone has told me about \usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}

i hear no germans climing that this should stay ... after all, it's a rather ancient way of dealing with things

Hello Hans, I'm german, and I don't see any reason for keeping those mappings.

...

I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's not up to me.

nobody voted in favor so far ...

I vote against too. The only mappings, that make sense to me: -- and --- since it's difficult to distinguish them from "-" in a text-editor and "~" since it's difficult to distinguish the utf unbreakable space from normal space in a text-editor. Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 09:26:08AM +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

Another German, and I agree, too, with every point Peter makes. As an addition: I would vote for keeping "` and "'. I know that \quotation{ } is better and have been using it for a while now, but I also know that many older documents still have the old quotes, and when I began using TeX, they were considered standard. I think it's better to gently convince users to switch to the better style, not force them by breaking their documents.

Hello, In general, I vote against keeping such features just for some old documents, because: - recompiling an old document with a recent ConTeXt-version, will give you problems in almost every case anyway, since ConTeXt is evolving constantly, old bug get fixed, new bugs come, workarounds have to be adapted - it's easy to translate old documents with tools like sed - it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old documents - it's easy to keep the pdf somewhere (that's what I do) Just to give you an example: my brother's thesis compiles fine with version 2007.01.12, but when I try it today, it stops with ! Missing \endcsname inserted. <to be read again> \def \dohandlemathpunctuation #1#2->\def \next {\csname \ifx \space \nexttoken #2... <argument> \??fs chemic, bib,typearea,chromato \ifundefined #1->\unless \ifcsname #1 \endcsname \truefilename #1->\ifundefined {\??fs #1} #1\else \truefilename {\csname \??f... <to be read again> ...hemic,bib,typearea,chromato} .} ... l.55 Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

On 12/12/07, Peter Münster wrote:

Hello,

In general, I vote against keeping such features just for some old documents, because:

Also, if one decides to use LuaTeX/XeTeX instead of pdfTeX (s)he must have some reason and might be willing to do some minor changes to the document if needed. (Disabling regimes would be an interesting experiment too :-) :-) :-) Not that I was the one who has forced their support :-)

- it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old documents

Not necessary, since you might also need older binaries and fonts.

- it's easy to keep the pdf somewhere (that's what I do)

[not to be taken too seriously:] The bad news is that PDFs are usually kept exactly at the place where a new version of the document (even if it cannot be compiled at all) overwrites the old one (that's what I usually do/what TeX does for me :). And once ConTeXt starts complaining, it's already too late (the file has gone). :) :) :) But yes - before recompiling an old document, a backup is not a bad idea at all. Mojca

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 10:39:50PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

(Disabling regimes would be an interesting experiment too :-) :-) :-) Not that I was the one who has forced their support :-)

Indeed, since now we're living in an utf-world!

...

- it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old documents

Not necessary, since you might also need older binaries and fonts.

More precisely: "TeX-distribution" (not "ConTeXt-distribution") Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/