On 7. Aug 2018, at 17:54, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:

On 08/06/2018 11:59 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

...

Sorry for all these footnote questions, […]

Hi Robert,

[…]

I hope it helps,

Pablo

That is it. I have no idea why – but that is the solution. (For all readers:) ConTeXt is great. Let me make that clear right way. I think it's the future of TeX. I'm already doing things in ConTeXt that I dread trying to do in LaTeX or any other system. But (yes, of course there was a 'but' coming) the one thing that is missing, the one obstacle which I think exists for ConTeXt gaining wider currency, is really good documentation. Take this last question of mine which Pablo solved: I had to put a certain parameter in \setupnotedefinition [footnote]. First I did it wrongly, putting it in \setupnote [footnote] (why? because the names of the values, like 'location', look so much alike). So what goes into \setupnotedefinition and what goes into \setupnote? How do I know? (How does Pablo know this? Maybe he can tell me off-list. :-) ) Many of the commands are not, or badly, documented in the otherwise useful Wiki. What are all the parameters that are recognized by the various commands, and just what do they mean? What are the default settings? ConTeXt looks like an object oriented programming language with inheritances, but it is unclear just what is inherited from where, and why. I appreciate all the effort made by various people to provide documentation and demos. But I think the cause of ConTeXt would be greatly served if someone would bring out a hierarchic list of the ConTeXt commands with a brief description of what the commands and the parameters do and why they exist at all, so that the reader gets an idea of the structure of the whole system and the philosophy behind it (i.e., explaining why it is thus structured and why it works). Once again: I think ConTeXt is great, and so is this forum, which is a huge help. I also realize ConTeXt is complex and that the great people behind it also have other things to do in life. But still: maybe the kind of documentation I propose would help to make things still a bit greater? Robert

On 8. Aug 2018, at 00:54, Alan Braslau wrote:

tex/context/interface/mkiv/i-context.pdf

Thank you! I didn’t know I already had this updated version of a document I’ve already been using. But however useful this document already is, it does illustrate some of my problems. For instance, in the entry ‘\setupnote’ I see: … indicator: yes no distance: dimension … Surely this is fine for those who have been working on ConTeXt for years at a very low coding level. But I see this and ask myself: “indicator of what? distance to what?” etc. (Sometimes, when confronted with such information, I just play around a bit with changing parameters and see what happens: sometimes I discover the meanings, sometimes I don’t.) ‘\setupnote’ inherits from ‘\setupframed’. There one finds … profile = NAME empty = yes no … and similar questions arise: “what kind of profile?”, “what is empty or not?” etc. Unfortunately the source browser on the Wiki is out of order, otherwise that might have helped. Suggestion / request: all the ConTeXt source files are, of course, read and processed in a particular order. It would surely be useful if someone could indicate where this chain begins. Anybody who would be interested in sorting out the workings of ConTeXt and writing a manual (no, I am not making any promises yet :-) ) could then trace how one command leads to another, another, another… and how the entire system is built up. Robert

On 8. Aug 2018, at 17:28, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:

Hi Robert,

[…] I might be totally missing your point here, but it seems to me that you try to know what can be achieved in general with ConTeXt, even before to learn how to use ConTeXt for your typesetting needs.

Not really. My requirements are rather dull and limited. I was attracted to ConTeXt for its simplicity in changing paper formats, in changing the formats of headings (section, subsection etc.), the ease with which index entries can be formatted, and above all for its beautiful table possibilities. The book I am working on is full of tables in various formats and lengths. That (and the footnotes :-) ) covers just about all my typesetting needs. I had already prepared numerous smaller documents as practice before I started to process the book with ConTeXt, was delighted with the results, and so I thought that I could manage the book too (before the end of this month…). Robert

On 8/8/2018 3:30 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

profile = NAME empty = yes no …

and similar questions arise: “what kind of profile?”, “what is empty or not?” etc.

Unfortunately the source browser on the Wiki is out of order, otherwise that might have helped.

Suggestion / request: all the ConTeXt source files are, of course, read and processed in a particular order. It would surely be useful if someone could indicate where this chain begins. Anybody who would be interested in sorting out the workings of ConTeXt and writing a manual (no, I am not making any promises yet :-) ) could then trace how one command leads to another, another, another… and how the entire system is built up.

it's pretty safe to ignore keys like 'profile' (if you grep the documentation tree .... it's just an example of a potential optimization of the rendering which in practice no one will use because in the end it makes no sense .... more fun feature i guess) the order is in context.mkiv ... and is determined by functionaility building on top of other although there are some circular dependencies Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 08/08/2018 12:40 AM, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

That is it. I have no idea why – but that is the solution.

Dear Robert, I will try to explain the reason of this (in my very limited understanding of how ConTeXt works). Notes in both MkII and MkII have two setup commands. One is for the group of notes and the other is for each individual note. This is why configuring notes might be tricky sometimes. Some options belong to \setupnote and some to \setupnotedefinition (or \setupnotation in MkIV).

(For all readers:)

I hope I’m also included 😉. Your example is a very special one. I mean, notes have two setup commands and you are using MkII. We already know you need support for Indic scripts (is Kannada the language you need?). I wonder whether we could do something to improve the situation in MkIV.

ConTeXt is great. Let me make that clear right way. I think it's the future of TeX. I'm already doing things in ConTeXt that I dread trying to do in LaTeX or any other system. But (yes, of course there was a 'but' coming) the one thing that is missing, the one obstacle which I think exists for ConTeXt gaining wider currency, is really good documentation.

I moved from LaTeX to ConTeXt a decade ago. Back then, I also thought that ConTeXt needed better documentation. In the meanwhile, I realized that there are more things in heaven and earth, that were dreamt in my philosophy. I mean, ConTeXt involves much more than I thought. Hans explained in the list why general documentation is not his task: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2010/047500.html. As an introduction to that, you can read my own take on the matter: https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2017/090111.html. In short, users have to write the general documentation about ConTeXt. Or at least, we cannot expect (I’m not saying that you imply this) that Hans develops both ConTeXt and LuaTeX, replies many questions in too many mailing lists, writes technical documentation for both softwares and also writes introductory manuals.

Take this last question of mine which Pablo solved: I had to put a certain parameter in \setupnotedefinition [footnote]. First I did it wrongly, putting it in \setupnote [footnote] (why? because the names of the values, like 'location', look so much alike). So what goes into \setupnotedefinition and what goes into \setupnote? How do I know?

Welcome to the club. I mean, I also had my problems understanding why notes were so complex to setup. For MkIV (as Alan mentioned), you have tex/texmf-context/tex/context/interface/mkiv/i-context.pdf. For MkII, there seems to be no document for the English interface (at least, in tex/texmf-context/tex/context/interface/mkii). I might be wrong here, since I only used MkII for your notes.

(How does Pablo know this? Maybe he can tell me off-list. :-) )

Who says I knew it? I simply searched in the source. I know that \setupnotations[alternative=serried] is the command in MkIV. So I grepped for "serried" in tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkii/. It took me a while to realize that strc-lnt.mkii had exactly the key I was looking for (on line 109). I must confess, if I hand’t find this line, I wouldn’t have been able to give an answer from what I read in strc-not.mkii.

Many of the commands are not, or badly, documented in the otherwise useful Wiki.

The wiki is written by users. I don’t know whether it is useful to add MkII information to the wiki, but updating the wiki

What are all the parameters that are recognized by the various commands, and just what do they mean? What are the default settings?

See above for that list.

ConTeXt looks like an object oriented programming language with inheritances, but it is unclear just what is inherited from where, and why.

I don’t code, but I wonder whether this is more complex. ConTeXt MkII is a macro package programmed in TeX (which is a typographical programming language). ConTeXt MkIV adds Lua. For a more complete description, http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/what-is-context.pdf.

I appreciate all the effort made by various people to provide documentation and demos. But I think the cause of ConTeXt would be greatly served if someone would bring out a hierarchic list of the ConTeXt commands with a brief description of what the commands and the parameters do and why they exist at all, so that the reader gets an idea of the structure of the whole system and the philosophy behind it (i.e., explaining why it is thus structured and why it works).

Once again: I think ConTeXt is great, and so is this forum, which is a huge help. I also realize ConTeXt is complex and that the great people behind it also have other things to do in life. But still: maybe the kind of documentation I propose would help to make things still a bit greater?

The question for such a document would be how many users might benefit from it. I mean, ConTeXt is a huge task (support for Kannada is one of the many features we would like to have implemented in it) and writing such a document is not a minor task. And the users? Well, I’m afraid that there are two kinds of them, when related to this issue. One group of users may be able to understand such a document, but they won’t need it, because they already have the knowledge explained on it. The other group of users won’t be able to understand such a document, because they lack have the required background. (Not everyone is able to code 🙄.) Let me finish with a personal experience. One of the most useful features in ConTeXt is dealing directly with XML sources as input. There is a document (written by Hans) explaining XML in ConTeXt: tex/texmf-context/doc/context/documents/general/manuals/xml-mkiv.pdf. Needless to say that I don’t understand every single feature explained on it. And it took me a while to understand the very basics. Does it mean it isn’t well written? The document is perfectly fine, assuming that it is technical documentation. An introductory document to xml-mkiv.pdf would be fine, but it should be written by another person that Hans himself. Just in case it might help, Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk

On 08/08/2018 08:50 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

[...] I’m also writing a (beginners) book on ConTeXt in German, and I find it really hard to decide what I should include. It can’t become a reference, a complete one is impossible anyway.

Hi Hraban, your book will be an important reference, althought it won’t be “the reference” (I doubt such a thing might exist).

E.g. I wanted margin notes. Like footnotes, but in the margin. No problem if you want them at the bottom. Very hard if you want them like marginals, starting in the line of the marker... Is this common enough to include it in my book?

I would say this is too specific. But I would provide the explanation in the wiki.

As a media designer, who’s also working with InDesign, my focus is of course different from a scientist who just wants her thesis readable...

I think it is essential to have a wider range of explanations on how to do things with ConTeXt (or even with computers, but this is a different topic). I’m not saying that other approaches are wrong. Just only not everyone may understand things the same way. Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk

On 8/10/2018 5:50 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

And I still could smash my primary school teacher: When I asked "what happens if we subtract a bigger number from a smaller?", she answered "that’s not possible". :( She could have easily told me "you will learn that later" or just show me at the thermometer "look, we will get below zero"... But noo, better keep children dumb, otherwise they could outwit you.

Sorry for ranting ;) but with your thermometer example young Alan (who watches discovery channel on a daily basis and later becomes a low temperature expert) would outwit you as he would challenge you to subtract 300 from zero

Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 18:38:19 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

On 8/10/2018 5:50 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

...

And I still could smash my primary school teacher: When I asked "what happens if we subtract a bigger number from a smaller?", she answered "that’s not possible". :( She could have easily told me "you will learn that later" or just show me at the thermometer "look, we will get below zero"... But noo, better keep children dumb, otherwise they could outwit you.

Sorry for ranting ;) but with your thermometer example young Alan (who watches discovery channel on a daily basis and later becomes a low temperature expert) would outwit you as he would challenge you to subtract 300 from zero

No, - 273.15 ;-) Alan

On 8/8/2018 8:18 AM, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:

For MkIV (as Alan mentioned), you have tex/texmf-context/tex/context/interface/mkiv/i-context.pdf.

also have a look at the test suite ... many examples there

I mean, ConTeXt is a huge task (support for Kannada is one of the many features we would like to have implemented in it) and writing such a document is not a minor task.

should mostly work (apart from one or two special cases which are in the pipeline) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------