testing tagging for UA-2

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Struggling with xml/epub export...

Pablo Rodriguez

7 Jul 2025 7 Jul '25

5:16 p.m.

Hi Hans & Mikael, for UA-1 one can modify tagging by copying and renaming `lpdf-tag-imp-crap.lmt`. Is there any way to do the same with UA-2? Many thanks for your help, Pablo

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Hans Hagen

7 Jul 7 Jul

6:05 p.m.

On 7/7/2025 5:16 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...

Hi Hans & Mikael,

for UA-1 one can modify tagging by copying and renaming `lpdf-tag-imp-crap.lmt`.

Indeed. When there are useful and reliable mappings we can of course add more. In that case there also should be intended structure mentioned because we can have a richer structure in context than possible with those mappings to pdf which then can result in an invalidated mapping. It's mostly about playing safe.

...

Is there any way to do the same with UA-2?

Did you test it with ua 1 replaced by ua 2 ? If needed we can pick up on it next month or so unless there are clean and easy additions to make (we're currently not in that mode and it's not the most interesting stuff to play with so we like to concentrate it, and the more it rains the better). Thanks for looking into it (I have no use cases and no possibilities to test and Mikael depends on what means and demands the university puts on it.) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Pablo Rodriguez

7:48 p.m.

On 7/7/25 18:05, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...

[...] Indeed. When there are useful and reliable mappings we can of course add more. In that case there also should be intended structure mentioned because we can have a richer structure in context than possible with those mappings to pdf which then can result in an invalidated mapping.

It's mostly about playing safe.

Of course, I totally agree with that. I only want to play to be able to investigate which options are the right ones. This is my way of looking into this, just by testing (or breaking) it first.

...

[...] Did you test it with ua 1 replaced by ua 2 ?

No, it works fine. Sorry, but with lines such as: description = { pua = "ua1", pdf = "Note" }, `pua = "ua1"` made me think that it was UA-1 only.

...

If needed we can pick up on it next month or so unless there are clean and easy additions to make (we're currently not in that mode and it's not the most interesting stuff to play with so we like to concentrate it, and the more it rains the better).

Tagging is boring and despairing for me (but subcolumnsets for parallel texts are in pause mode now). As far as I can recall, there are three things pending regarding spans: languages, alternative text and actual text (/StructElem is missing there). Language tagging should be able for some block elements (at least, delimitedtext and probably description).

...

Thanks for looking into it (I have no use cases and no possibilities to test and Mikael depends on what means and demands the university puts on it.)

Many thanks for mentioning it. The latest tagging sample mentioned in the list (shorter version, https://perspectivia.net/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/pnet_derivate_00007290/...) contains also some tagging that is really hard to believe it might be right, such as: /P <>BDC 0.145 Tw 9 0 0 9 66.4399 67.6929 Tm [(e)13.6 (.)27.4 (g)16.2 (. Peter Frankopan)-7 (, )]TJ EMC /P <>BDC /TT1 1 Tf 10.022 0 Td [(The Earth Transformed: An )-0.6 (Untold History)]TJ EMC At least, there are the following issues here: 1. Too many /P elements for what should be /Span elements. 2. “The Earth Transformed: An Untold Story” is English, not German. 3. /MCID are orphan (they lack their corresponding /StructElem). #2 may be a human honest mistake, but #1 and #3? My impression is that many (when not most) people may be struggling with proper tagging. Many thanks for your reply and your help, Pablo

Hans Hagen

8 Jul 8 Jul

3:27 p.m.

On 7/7/2025 7:48 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...

Language tagging should be able for some block elements (at least, delimitedtext and probably description).

That should not be too hard, depending on how specific one wants to be. It's more about choices than complexity of implementation.

...

The latest tagging sample mentioned in the list (shorter version, https://perspectivia.net/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/pnet_derivate_00007290/...) contains also some tagging that is really hard to believe it might be right, such as:

/P <>BDC 0.145 Tw 9 0 0 9 66.4399 67.6929 Tm [(e)13.6 (.)27.4 (g)16.2 (. Peter Frankopan)-7 (, )]TJ EMC /P <>BDC /TT1 1 Tf 10.022 0 Td [(The Earth Transformed: An )-0.6 (Untold History)]TJ EMC

At least, there are the following issues here:

1. Too many /P elements for what should be /Span elements. 2. “The Earth Transformed: An Untold Story” is English, not German. 3. /MCID are orphan (they lack their corresponding /StructElem).

#2 may be a human honest mistake, but #1 and #3?

My impression is that many (when not most) people may be struggling with proper tagging.

If it somehow validates then the objectives are probably reached. Which is what much tagging will boil down to in the end. One problem is that there are restrictions to what elements can nest which is why we need to play safe. In the average text we have just titles, itemization, simple tables, maybe simple math (most articles and text books actually are just that). But what if we start nesting, and do typographically interesting things. Say you have somethign that tags as label but it has an image in it. Or a (nested) link which has its own restrictions. If accessibility is really important one should just make a stripped own no-fancy-typesetting document alongside. After all, in that case looks don't matter. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Pablo Rodriguez

4:43 p.m.

On 7/8/25 15:27, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...

On 7/7/2025 7:48 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...
Language tagging should be able for some block elements (at least, delimitedtext and probably description).

That should not be too hard, depending on how specific one wants to be. It's more about choices than complexity of implementation.

I guess something like an option `language=nl` in `\startdelimitedtext` would be fine.

...

...
At least, there are the following issues here:

1. Too many /P elements for what should be /Span elements. 2. “The Earth Transformed: An Untold Story” is English, not German. 3. /MCID are orphan (they lack their corresponding /StructElem). [...] If it somehow validates then the objectives are probably reached. Which is what much tagging will boil down to in the end.

As Ulrike says, it is easy to trick validation. The problem with the three issues above is that reading aloud that text (many paragraphs into one) and probably English text with German intonation and pronunciation cannot qualify as making it accessible to visually-impaired people.

...

If accessibility is really important one should just make a stripped own no-fancy-typesetting document alongside. After all, in that case looks don't matter. Of course, but one needs to get everything right even for that stripped-down version (I’m not referring especially to ConTeXt).

Pablo

Hans Hagen

5:07 p.m.

On 7/8/2025 4:43 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...

On 7/8/25 15:27, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...
On 7/7/2025 7:48 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...
Language tagging should be able for some block elements (at least, delimitedtext and probably description).

That should not be too hard, depending on how specific one wants to be. It's more about choices than complexity of implementation.

I guess something like an option `language=nl` in `\startdelimitedtext` would be fine.

so how about {\nl iets als fit} then we can be more automatic as the language is known and we only need to occasionally check for changes (but i want as little overhead as possible)

...

The problem with the three issues above is that reading aloud that text (many paragraphs into one) and probably English text with German intonation and pronunciation cannot qualify as making it accessible to visually-impaired people.

It might actually be more fun to listen to an english speaker reading german and reverse because that's real life. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Pablo Rodriguez

5:24 p.m.

On 7/8/25 17:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...

...
[...] I guess something like an option `language=nl` in `\startdelimitedtext` would be fine.

so how about {\nl iets als fit} then

Fine from the TeX code, PDF output will need adjusting. I proposed `\startdelimitedtext[language=nl]` resembling `<blockquote lang="nl">`.

...

we can be more automatic as the language is known and we only need to occasionally check for changes (but i want as little overhead as possible)

I think this is also the basic idea with tagging (not the PDF, but ConTeXt or XML code itself): only mark what has been changed.

...

...
The problem with the three issues above is that reading aloud that text (many paragraphs into one) and probably English text with German intonation and pronunciation cannot qualify as making it accessible to visually-impaired people.

It might actually be more fun to listen to an english speaker reading german and reverse because that's real life.

Well, not extremely pleasant for native speakers (and probably harder to understand for foreigners). Pablo

Wolfgang Schuster

5:33 p.m.

Am 08.07.2025 um 17:24 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:

...

On 7/8/25 17:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...
...
[...] I guess something like an option `language=nl` in `\startdelimitedtext` would be fine.

so how about {\nl iets als fit} then

Fine from the TeX code, PDF output will need adjusting.

I proposed `\startdelimitedtext[language=nl]` resembling `<blockquote lang="nl">`.

We already have \startblockquote[<language>] ... \stopblockquote. Wolfgang

Pablo Rodriguez

5:56 p.m.

On 7/8/25 17:33, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

Am 08.07.2025 um 17:24 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:

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[...] I proposed `\startdelimitedtext[language=nl]` resembling `<blockquote lang="nl">`.

We already have \startblockquote[<language>] ... \stopblockquote.

As always, you are right, Wolfgang. https://www.pragma-ade.com/general/qrcs/setup-en.pdf#search=startdelimitedte... Many thanks for the tip, since it makes easier to see how it behaves with tagging. Pablo

Keith McKay

5:34 p.m.

The English speaker will only speak English but louder. ;)) Keith On 08/07/2025 16:24, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

...

On 7/8/25 17:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

...
...
[...] I guess something like an option `language=nl` in `\startdelimitedtext` would be fine. so how about {\nl iets als fit} then Fine from the TeX code, PDF output will need adjusting.

I proposed `\startdelimitedtext[language=nl]` resembling `<blockquote lang="nl">`.

...
we can be more automatic as the language is known and we only need to occasionally check for changes (but i want as little overhead as possible) I think this is also the basic idea with tagging (not the PDF, but ConTeXt or XML code itself): only mark what has been changed.

...
...
The problem with the three issues above is that reading aloud that text (many paragraphs into one) and probably English text with German intonation and pronunciation cannot qualify as making it accessible to visually-impaired people. It might actually be more fun to listen to an english speaker reading german and reverse because that's real life. Well, not extremely pleasant for native speakers (and probably harder to understand for foreigners).

Pablo ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

Pablo Rodriguez

6:28 p.m.

On 7/8/25 17:34, Keith McKay wrote:

...

The English speaker will only speak English but louder. ;))

Well, although not especially related to German, https://youtubenuker.lol/watch?v=3-w0-lZldWA (alternative frontend to YouTuebe). Pablo

Keith McKay

9:06 p.m.

Ha, ha. Das Video war sehr lustig. Malheureusement, la plupart des Anglais ont de très mauvaises compétences en langues étrangères. :)) Best Wishes Keith Scotland On Tue, 8 Jul 2025, 17:32 Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context, < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

...

On 7/8/25 17:34, Keith McKay wrote:

...
The English speaker will only speak English but louder. ;))

Well, although not especially related to German, https://youtubenuker.lol/watch?v=3-w0-lZldWA (alternative frontend to YouTuebe).

Pablo

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___________________________________________________________________________________

vm

10:47 p.m.

8<--- The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. --->8 ;-) On 08/07/2025 21:06, Keith McKay wrote:

...

Ha, ha. Das Video war sehr lustig. Malheureusement, la plupart des Anglais ont de très mauvaises compétences en langues étrangères. :)) Best Wishes Keith Scotland

Jean-Pierre Delange

9 Jul 9 Jul

11:09 a.m.

This attempt to make the English language accessible to everyone is certainly commendable for non-native speakers who have already invented sub-varieties of English, such as airport English, or the very curious language that is Indo-Pakistani English. In France, where the language has been reinvented several times throughout history, notably under the leadership of the Académie Française, which in the 17th century literally created new vocabulary based on ancient Greek (particularly in the fields of rhetoric and medicine), the difference between written language and pronunciation is formidable (and feared by non-native speakers); but even more so, spelling (a Greek word in French = “orthographe”!) was reformed about ten years ago, but without success, because it was yet another rule to memorize! In fact, for French students today, the only writing rule they can still understand is apparently based on the sounds they want to transcribe. And as pronunciation evolves over time (example: the verb “céder,” which in the future tense becomes “je cèderai” - ‘è’ instead of “é”), institutions are seeking to follow practice, while at the same time simplifying words with double consonants by removing the double consonant. More strangely, there is a desire to Frenchify English terms that have been imported directly (such as “leader,” written “leadeur”). The problem with this example (‘leadeur’) is that it is homophonous (a Greek word!) with “laideur” (ugliness). In short, there is a tendency to want to simplify everything by means that create other problems, and in doing so, we forget a point once emphasized by Kierkegaard: “it is not the path that is difficult, it is the difficult that is the path.” JP Le 08/07/2025 à 22:47, vm via ntg-context a écrit :

...

8<---

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

--->8

;-)

On 08/07/2025 21:06, Keith McKay wrote:

...
Ha, ha. Das Video war sehr lustig. Malheureusement, la plupart des Anglais ont de très mauvaises compétences en langues étrangères. :)) Best Wishes Keith Scotland

___________________________________________________________________________________

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Jean-Pierre Delange

10:40 a.m.

Keith, Is this perhaps why Europeans, despite being so proud of their own languages, speak English? Ist das vielleicht der Grund, warum die Europäer, die doch so stolz auf ihre eigene Sprache sind, versuchen, sich auf Englisch zu verständigen? C'est sans doute la raison pour laquelle les Européens, pourtant si fiers de leur propre langue maternelle, cherchent à se faire comprendre en anglais ? ¿Es sin duda por eso por lo que los europeos, tan orgullosos de su propia lengua (realmente intraducible), intentan hacerse entender en inglés? È forse questo il motivo per cui gli europei, pur essendo così orgogliosi della propria lingua (effettivamente intraducibile), cercano di farsi capire in inglese? Αυτός είναι μάλλον ο λόγος για τον οποίο οι Ευρωπαίοι, που είναι τόσο περήφανοι για τη γλώσσα τους (η οποία είναι πραγματικά αμετάφραστη), προσπαθούν να επικοινωνούν στα αγγλικά. Je to snáď dôvod, prečo sa Európania, ktorí sú tak hrdí na svoj vlastný jazyk (ktorý je skutočne nepreložiteľný), snažia dorozumievať sa v angličtine? Será por isso que os europeus, apesar de tão orgulhosos da sua própria língua (realmente intraduzível), procuram fazer-se entender em inglês? To pewnie dlatego Europejczycy, mimo że są tak dumni ze swojego języka (który naprawdę nie da się przetłumaczyć), starają się porozumiewać po angielsku? etc. JP Le 08/07/2025 à 21:06, Keith McKay a écrit :

...

Ha, ha. Das Video war sehr lustig. Malheureusement, la plupart des Anglais ont de très mauvaises compétences en langues étrangères. :)) Best Wishes Keith Scotland

On Tue, 8 Jul 2025, 17:32 Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context, wrote:

On 7/8/25 17:34, Keith McKay wrote: > The English speaker will only speak English but louder. ;))

Well, although not especially related to German, https://youtubenuker.lol/watch?v=3-w0-lZldWA (alternative frontend to YouTuebe).

Pablo ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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Keith McKay

11:25 a.m.

Jean , Learning a foreign language in the UK has never been given the priority it should have. In Europe, children are taught a foreign language from an early age, mainly English. They tried to do that here in Primary Schools but their was some resistance from teachers especially those who didn’t have language skills. It was just not given the priority it should have. Now we are in the situation that the numbers studying a European language at university are falling. It's a situation that badly needs resolved. Which brings me back to my original comment whereby an English person in Europe thinks that the only way to be understood is to speak in English, but louder. I've seen that happen and was so embarrassed. Best Wishes Keith (who voted to remain in the EU). On Wed, 9 Jul 2025, 09:43 Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context, < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

...

Keith,

Is this perhaps why Europeans, despite being so proud of their own languages, speak English?

Ist das vielleicht der Grund, warum die Europäer, die doch so stolz auf ihre eigene Sprache sind, versuchen, sich auf Englisch zu verständigen?

C'est sans doute la raison pour laquelle les Européens, pourtant si fiers de leur propre langue maternelle, cherchent à se faire comprendre en anglais ?

¿Es sin duda por eso por lo que los europeos, tan orgullosos de su propia lengua (realmente intraducible), intentan hacerse entender en inglés?

È forse questo il motivo per cui gli europei, pur essendo così orgogliosi della propria lingua (effettivamente intraducibile), cercano di farsi capire in inglese?

Αυτός είναι μάλλον ο λόγος για τον οποίο οι Ευρωπαίοι, που είναι τόσο περήφανοι για τη γλώσσα τους (η οποία είναι πραγματικά αμετάφραστη), προσπαθούν να επικοινωνούν στα αγγλικά.

Je to snáď dôvod, prečo sa Európania, ktorí sú tak hrdí na svoj vlastný jazyk (ktorý je skutočne nepreložiteľný), snažia dorozumievať sa v angličtine?

Será por isso que os europeus, apesar de tão orgulhosos da sua própria língua (realmente intraduzível), procuram fazer-se entender em inglês?

To pewnie dlatego Europejczycy, mimo że są tak dumni ze swojego języka (który naprawdę nie da się przetłumaczyć), starają się porozumiewać po angielsku?

etc.

JP

Le 08/07/2025 à 21:06, Keith McKay a écrit :

Ha, ha. Das Video war sehr lustig. Malheureusement, la plupart des Anglais ont de très mauvaises compétences en langues étrangères. :)) Best Wishes Keith Scotland

On Tue, 8 Jul 2025, 17:32 Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context, < ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

...
On 7/8/25 17:34, Keith McKay wrote:

...
The English speaker will only speak English but louder. ;))

Well, although not especially related to German, https://youtubenuker.lol/watch?v=3-w0-lZldWA (alternative frontend to YouTuebe).

Pablo

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

Hans Hagen

1:02 p.m.

On 7/9/2025 10:40 AM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

...

Keith,

Is this perhaps why Europeans, despite being so proud of their own languages, speak English?

Sound like you're a candidate for the french "context user interface" I assume you left out dutch for a purpose:

...

Ist das vielleicht der Grund, warum die Europäer, die doch so stolz auf ihre eigene Sprache sind, versuchen, sich auf Englisch zu verständigen?

C'est sans doute la raison pour laquelle les Européens, pourtant si fiers de leur propre langue maternelle, cherchent à se faire comprendre en anglais ?

¿Es sin duda por eso por lo que los europeos, tan orgullosos de su propia lengua (realmente intraducible), intentan hacerse entender en inglés?

È forse questo il motivo per cui gli europei, pur essendo così orgogliosi della propria lingua (effettivamente intraducibile), cercano di farsi capire in inglese?

Αυτός είναι μάλλον ο λόγος για τον οποίο οι Ευρωπαίοι, που είναι τόσο περήφανοι για τη γλώσσα τους (η οποία είναι πραγματικά αμετάφραστη), προσπαθούν να επικοινωνούν στα αγγλικά.

Je to snáď dôvod, prečo sa Európania, ktorí sú tak hrdí na svoj vlastný jazyk (ktorý je skutočne nepreložiteľný), snažia dorozumievať sa v angličtine?

Será por isso que os europeus, apesar de tão orgulhosos da sua própria língua (realmente intraduzível), procuram fazer-se entender em inglês?

To pewnie dlatego Europejczycy, mimo że są tak dumni ze swojego języka (który naprawdę nie da się przetłumaczyć), starają się porozumiewać po angielsku?

etc.

Hans (who by now has forgotten most french that got at school, although it actually helped to get latin in both directions as many languages took from that) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Jean-Pierre Delange

10 Jul 10 Jul

8:53 a.m.

Le 09/07/2025 à 13:02, Hans Hagen via ntg-context a écrit :

...

On 7/9/2025 10:40 AM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

...
Keith,

Is this perhaps why Europeans, despite being so proud of their own languages, speak English?

Sound like you're a candidate for the french "context user interface"

I assume you left out dutch for a purpose:

Dat klopt! Ik heb Nederlands weggelaten, omdat het niet echt op deze lijst wordt gebruikt. Maar dat geldt ook voor veel andere talen die in Europa worden gesproken. Ik wilde ook geen Bretonnen, Ieren, Solenen, Litouwers, Esten en Letten voor het hoofd stoten. En je hebt gelijk, Hans: het Latijn dat we op school hebben geleerd, is erg nuttig om de grammatica van de Romaanse talen te leren (maar nutteloos voor het Engels!). Wat betreft de Franstalige interface van ConTeXt, kun je me misschien de lijst met specificaties sturen die ik vanaf september kan implementeren? That's true! I omitted Dutch, which isn't really used on this list. But that's the case for many other languages spoken in Europe. I also didn't want to offend the Bretons, Irish, Solenes, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Latvians. And you're right, Hans: Latin learned in school is a great help in learning the grammar of Romance languages (and useless for English!). As for the ConTeXt interface in French, could you perhaps send me the (one) list of specifications that I could implement starting in September?

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Ist das vielleicht der Grund, warum die Europäer, die doch so stolz auf ihre eigene Sprache sind, versuchen, sich auf Englisch zu verständigen?

C'est sans doute la raison pour laquelle les Européens, pourtant si fiers de leur propre langue maternelle, cherchent à se faire comprendre en anglais ?

¿Es sin duda por eso por lo que los europeos, tan orgullosos de su propia lengua (realmente intraducible), intentan hacerse entender en inglés?

È forse questo il motivo per cui gli europei, pur essendo così orgogliosi della propria lingua (effettivamente intraducibile), cercano di farsi capire in inglese?

Αυτός είναι μάλλον ο λόγος για τον οποίο οι Ευρωπαίοι, που είναι τόσο περήφανοι για τη γλώσσα τους (η οποία είναι πραγματικά αμετάφραστη), προσπαθούν να επικοινωνούν στα αγγλικά.

Je to snáď dôvod, prečo sa Európania, ktorí sú tak hrdí na svoj vlastný jazyk (ktorý je skutočne nepreložiteľný), snažia dorozumievať sa v angličtine?

Será por isso que os europeus, apesar de tão orgulhosos da sua própria língua (realmente intraduzível), procuram fazer-se entender em inglês?

To pewnie dlatego Europejczycy, mimo że są tak dumni ze swojego języka (który naprawdę nie da się przetłumaczyć), starają się porozumiewać po angielsku?

etc.

Hans

(who by now has forgotten most french that got at school, although it actually helped to get latin in both directions as many languages took from that)

What is curious about English is that it was originally a Germanic language. But with the Norman conquest of 1066, a mass of French words appeared in the language (e.g. "sheep", but "mutton" (meal); or another example: "tennis", which comes from the French verb "tenir", ‘hold!’=> "tenez !" => "tennis"). I suppose Latin arrived in the UK with the Catholic missionaries. Furthermore, French was once the language of international diplomacy. And I find it particularly strange that the working language of the European Union is English, especially since most parliamentarians speak in their mother tongue. JP

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Henning Hraban Ramm

11:55 a.m.

New subject: international interfaces (was: testing tagging for UA-2)

Am 10.07.25 um 08:53 schrieb Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context:

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Sound like you're a candidate for the french "context user interface"

As for the ConTeXt interface in French, could you perhaps send me the (one) list of specifications that I could implement starting in September?

See texmf-context/doc/context/documents/general/qrcs for the international interfaces. Start mtxrun --script server --auto and open http://localhost:8088/mtx-server-ctx-startup.lua in your browser to compare the commands. Hraban

Bruce Horrocks

11:26 p.m.

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On 10 Jul 2025, at 07:53, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

I suppose Latin arrived in the UK with the Catholic missionaries.

Latin first arrived in Britain courtesy of Emperor Claudius who sent an army to invade in 43AD. (Julius Caesar having failed at an earlier invasion in 55-54BC) :-) — Bruce Horrocks Hampshire, UK

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Bruce Horrocks
Hans Hagen
Hans Hagen
Henning Hraban Ramm
Jean-Pierre Delange
Keith McKay
Pablo Rodriguez
vm
Wolfgang Schuster