On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

Khaled Hosny wrote:

...

framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.

\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT \starttext \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \framed{Hello world} \startframedtext \input tufte \stopframedtext \startbackground \input tufte \stopbackground \stoptext

if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay

I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of the log after "Completed box being shipped out [1]"), while in context all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean. \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \tracingall Hello \hbox{World} \bye Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer

On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:08:48 -0600, Hans Hagen wrote:

you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv % \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments} % \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments} i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are enabled the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir influence textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to be rl independent of page/bodydir (we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir commands)

Indeed. We may also need Taco's help; he's about the only one I know who precisely understands the distinction between \pardir and \bodydir. I did some extensive testing on this nearly two years ago and could hardly make sense of it. The user should never have to touch \pardir or \bodydir and we need a higher level command. Not sure if the same will work at the macro level. I'll search for Taco's old detailed explanations of these two and forward them to you and Khalid. Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523

Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Khaled Hosny wrote:

...

framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.

\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT \starttext \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \framed{Hello world} \startframedtext \input tufte \stopframedtext \startbackground \input tufte \stopbackground \stoptext if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay

I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of the log after "Completed box being shipped out [1]"), while in context all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.

a better example of the mess we're dealing with: \starttext \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \stoptext ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:17:25PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

a better example of the mess we're dealing with:

\starttext

\pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage

\stoptext

Thanks for the example, I think I got your point. From my understanding, I think text and paragraph direction should be only controlled by \textdir and \pardir respectively, whatever \pagedir or \bodydir are. Indeed, I don't see why \bodydir would influence the text direction inside boxes.

indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the page/bodydir for the moment) since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following \setuplayout[direction=r2l] % also influences general layout issues \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then, they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 12:35:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Khaled Hosny wrote: indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the page/bodydir for the moment)

since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following

\setuplayout[direction=r2l] % also influences general layout issues

I assume that will mirror all layout elements like double sided page numbering, right and left pages etc. right?

yes, the thing that idris identified in his onthology (which might have white spots); we start on this once some other arabic font subsystem, has been completed

...

\setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward

so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then, they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key

This sounds very good for me.

ok, the next beta will have the \setupalign and align= available

While we are in it, I'd suggest that the current implicit bidi to be revised, currently it is broken. I suggest to be implement Unicode BiDi algorithm[1], and the "higher-level protocols[2]" part is worthy investigating. Also, I think it should be decoupled from character mirroring, so that one can enable mirroring while explicitly setting text direction. Also, some characters that had assigned mirrored property in Unicode 5.0.0 has been reversed in later revisions[3] because it "affects deployed data" (the source of all evil!), this includes quotation marks, so we need to handle mirroring of those characters as part of the suggested higher-level protocols as well.

hm, this character mirroring is kind of evil anyway (as it can also intefere with font features) i'll look into it later (first need to finish a few things) the problem with bidi is that it it has to work ok with the already present (of triggered) TRT / TLT nodes which is not that trivial Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------