What should I learn?
Hi, I would like to ask you some advice on what should I learn. Context was the first typography program I used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of latex. Context is where I get the best results, but what I really would like is something that allows me to do things in my own way, not something that's always great for reasons I don't understand. (Of course, the first documents I would type would not be that good, but I'll learn with time.) I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I can't use it to create something to fit my (worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better) taste without doing a lot more work than I'm able to do. I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions? Thanks, Maurício
[new subject line: "dwarfs astride the shoulders of giants"] Hi Maurício, I understand your ambition to do it all your own way and do it at least as well as the masters, preferably skipping the tedious process of following their lead first ;-) Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants Years ago I was at a meeting of local TeX users and the guest speaker was a legendary typographer who had written a landmark book about making books. In the audience was a young man who had a question, or rather an opinion. "In typography, left/right justified text is supposed to be the standard, but that's nonsense. I find it better and more readable to have text flush left. What do you think?" The typographer answered "well maybe you are right, but all the leading typographers of centuries before us have disagreed with you." Others will have different suggestions but you could start out reading the TeXbook by Knuth http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html and any basic book about typography. Enjoy the trip! Frans On 21 okt 2008, at 04:39, Maurí cio wrote: Hi, I would like to ask you some advice on what should I learn. Context was the first typography program I used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of latex. Context is where I get the best results, but what I really would like is something that allows me to do things in my own way, not something that's always great for reasons I don't understand. (Of course, the first documents I would type would not be that good, but I'll learn with time.) I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I can't use it to create something to fit my (worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better) taste without doing a lot more work than I'm able to do. I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions? Thanks, Maurício ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks. But typography books are not the problem. I've seen many, many, many of them, and each one makes me unhappy because I have nowhere to try what they say. My dad is very good at typesetting, but he can draw very well (everything he writes is manuscript, he don't drust a computer to do anything after a few bad experiences). I can't draw, so I need software that gets what I describe and makes it into PDF. The problem is: understanding everything about PDF file format, reading font files, knowing about all available implementations of typesetting algorithms is far beyond my habilities. Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms). Thanks for your tips, Maurício
Hi Maurício,
(...)
Others will have different suggestions but you could start out reading the TeXbook by Knuth
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html
and any basic book about typography.
Enjoy the trip!
Frans
Hi,
I would like to ask you some advice on what should I learn. (...)
Context is where I get the best results, but what I really would like is something that allows me to do things in my own way, not something that's always great for reasons I don't understand. (...)
Do you think I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions?
Mauricio wrote:
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms).
you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Mauricio wrote:
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms).
you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :) I think I want to have enough available libraries so that I could write small programs to generate documents. Most of the time I would probably insert the text in the source code, or create specialized programs that could deal with specific series of documents (I remember reading in an interview with Donald Knuth that this is the way TeX was supposed to be used when it was designed.) If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least write a nice library of general purpose typesetting algorithms that someone could use in the future to do what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on top of dwarfs... Best, Maurício
Mauricio wrote:
Mauricio wrote:
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms). you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)
well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing something typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not much different from a library where you use some function call to achieve the same no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains the same ... if for instance you want to deal with fonts in a systematic way you have to program that (and there are several approaches for organizing fonts); in the end you end up with much macro code, haskell code, c code, whatever code, either ot not hidden what system you use or build depend on what you need to typeset, for instance if you need to implement a specific design (which changes over time and therefore it should be easy to change your code) that is used to process thousands of documents codes in a special way ...
If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least write a nice library of general purpose typesetting algorithms that someone could use in the future to do what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on top of dwarfs...
... general purpose might not be what most users want; eventually luatex will provide many typesetting library components, but in themselves they are rather useless, as it's the integration that makes it useable Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? (...)
you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)
well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing something typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not much different from a library where you use some function call to achieve the same
What I like in non-macro programming is that typing (in the programming sense, where elements can be used only in places where their type, or class, is allowed) sometimes helps compose a lot of complex things into really simple things. I believe the translation of a document structure made of programming language data into typographic data is easier (mostly easier to debug).
no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains the same (…) what system you use or build depend on what you need to typeset (…)
I do think there are language features that can make organization of documents and use of techniques more powerfull. But I can only prove that (even to myself) showing something working.
If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least write a nice library of general purpose typesetting algorithms (…)
... general purpose might not be what most users want; eventually luatex will provide many typesetting library components, but in themselves they are rather useless, as it's the integration that makes it useable.
That's good enough for me. Which books and articles do those people who are going to write those libraries read? Does TeX book contain explanation of those algorithms? (Although I've seen that Context can do things TeX itself can't, maybe there are new important ideas around.) Maurício
Hi,
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:14:50 -0600, Mauricio
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms).
The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to disambiguate :-) What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly correspond to what you are looking for. Best wishes -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting algorithms).
The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to disambiguate :-)
What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout
It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly correspond to what you are looking for.
I have seen lout. It's document description language seems to use nice ideas not used by TeX. But it's dead, since the author has left it to pursue "the perfect typesetting language". Maybe he will have something great to show in a few years. Thanks, Maurício
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Maurício wrote:
I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions?
You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C). Aditya
I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions?
You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study. Maurício
Mauricio wrote:
I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions? You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell. Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general typesetting system. And then there is the design documentation of Basser Lout and Ant, but most other published research except is in scientific journals and/or PhD Theses. Best wishes, Taco
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Taco Hoekwater
Mauricio wrote:
I also like to write programs (I use a really nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I could get what I want if I write or translate typography functions to that language, and then write programs to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I learn about such functions? You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general typesetting system.
And, for luatex, http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf -- luigi
>>> (...) >> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. (...)
IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still the best "beginner's book" (...)
And, for luatex, http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf
You guys are great. I could not expect to find so much good stuff so well organized in just two packages. Thanks, Maurício
participants (8)
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Aditya Mahajan -
Frans Goddijn -
Hans Hagen -
Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي ح امد -
luigi scarso -
Mauricio -
Maurício
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Taco Hoekwater