On 16-4-2010 4:46, Marco wrote:

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Hi,

I've yet another hyphenation problem. I cannot get proper hyphenation in composed words. Take this MWE:

a mix up of settings .. fized in next beta Hi Hans,

the following code still produces an en dash instead of a hyphen. \setuplayout [width=1.5cm] \starttext composed||word\par % produces an en dash \def\compoundhyphen{-} composed||word\par % workaroud from Thomas, produces hyphen \stoptext Using ConTeXt ver: 2010.05.08 Marco

1. || does *not* produce a en-dash but to kerned hyphens You're right, I looked it up in the sources. It just looked like an en-dash for me. But this is wrong. For hyphenation a hyphen is used. The font designer has created a dedicated glyph for this purpose. And two hyphens (or an en-dash) is too large. I've never seen the advice in a typography book to kern two hyphens. I don't know why this is implemented like this.

2. The correct method to get a *normal* hyphen is

\setuphyphenmark[sign=normal]

Yes, this is the correct method. It should be enabled by default. If somebody wants a larger hyphen (for some mysterious reasen), he/she can set it up with \setuphyphenmark[sign=wide]

If the output is not correct it's a bug.

Yes, it is a bug. Hans already confirmed and said, he'll fix it, but it is not yet done, that's why I wanted to remember him. You can try and run the example from my first post. With Thomas' workaround the output is OK, but it is only a workaround. I (and probably many other users) would like to have correct behaviour by default. Marco

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You're right, I looked it up in the sources. It just looked like an en-dash for me. But this is wrong. For hyphenation a hyphen is used. The font designer has created a dedicated glyph for this purpose. And two hyphens (or an en-dash) is too large. I've never seen the advice in a typography book to kern two hyphens. I don't know why this is implemented like this.

because we needed it to be this way: we use it for separating compound words and then we want to have the hyphen between the compounds to be different from the ones within That's not how it is done in everyday typography, seems to be more a border case.

.. also, the reason for kerned hyphens instead of an endash is simple: the endash is too thin (at least in lm) That's true. The en-dash is condiderably thinner.

this works ok here (and i'm prety sure that it's also ok a few betas ago)

\starttext

test||test

\setuphyphenmark[sign=normal]

test||test

test|-|test

\stoptext Sure, my fault. This works. There _was_ a bug with the hyphen appearing on the start of the next line. This is fixed. Thank you. I thought you would also fix the »wrong« hyphenation sign, so I didn't check, just assumed that both issues aren't fixed. So

and the defaults are unlikely to change, but you can set it in your local cont-sys.tex file Ah, I see. I was not aware of a user configuration file (wiki helps how to set it up I just looked). So I can put my »personal« default hyphen

\setuphyphenmark[sign=normal] works now as expected (even if it's not the default). Thanks for this fix. there. Marco

It seems that the en-dash *can* be used in English in some cases: 'high-priority--high-pressure tasks' from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen I see. But this is a --more or less-- contructed case where using an en-dash instead of a hyphen makes sense. I agree with this example, the en-dash clearifies things.

But for general purpose the hyphen is used and not the en-dash. And I think the typesetting system should be set up to fit the general purpose. (Hans has a different opinion, I know.) BTW: If the appearance of the hyphen is unsatisfying it is better to choose a different font (or hyphen from a different font) or maybe to »correct« the font instead of altering settings of the typesetting system.

Concerning the hyphen sign, '\setuphyphenmark[sign=normal]' works as expected on my system (= normal hyphen sign). But it was (is?) not usable because, in case of a line break, the hyphen sometimes was placed at the beginning of a new line. You're right. I mixed things up. My fault. It always produced the right sign. And the bug is fixed (Thanks Hans!). So you can use

\setuphyphenmark[sign=normal] again in your cont-sys.tex ;-)

With '\def\compoundhyphen{-}' the compound hyphen breaks correctly. Not needed any more.

Marco

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I hope with the comments the problem is clear. At first the default value for »sign« is wrong. It has to be »normal«. But with »normal« I cannot get the hyphen at the end of the line, instead it always appeares at the beginning of the next line.

At the moment I use \def\compoundhyphen{-} instead of \setuphyphenmark. It seems to work (mkii).

Thomas Yes, it works also in MKIV. This is a better workaround than mine. But Hans said he'll fix it next beta. So I hope I'll not need it. Nevertheless thanks for this snippet. It produces exactly the behaviour I expect.

Marco