Hi Keith, how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have only one field for author/editor (serious question!)? I normally put the names uninverted but inverting Goethe’s name in the BibTeX file didn’t change anything. As far as I understood ConTeXt can handle inverted and uninverted names in BibTeX name fields equally well. There is something in the default mechanism that interpretes the “von” as part of the surname. What I was proposing was a way to manually switch to another mode where the “von” is treated as an attribute on a by-case-base–just like you can switch between “authoryear” and “authoryears” as I learned today. Greetings Jörg On 27.01.2015 20:16, Keith Schultz wrote:

Hi Jörg,

Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from!

Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“.

It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it!

So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field.

regards Keith

...

Am 27.01.2015 um 19:20 schrieb Jörg Weger :

The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined.

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How is a prefix identified as such with this technique? Is there a hardcoded list somewhere or is it "name begins with a 'word' in lowercase". IMHO it would be desirable that the prefix itself could be specified in a field. onsdag 28 januari 2015 skrev Ulrike Fischer :

Am Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:11:03 +0100 schrieb Jörg Weger:

...

how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have only one field for author/editor (serious question!)?

In biblatex/biber you could setup the entries like this:

@book{goethe, author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang}, title={Faust}, year={1775} }

@book{halen, author={van Halen, Edward}, title={Title}, year={1775}, options = {useprefix=true} }

Then you get "Goethe" and "van Halen".

(It is not a perfect solution: assume a book from Goethe and van Halen then you would have to use braces to save the "van": author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang and {van Halen}, Edward},

-- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:

Hi Jörg,

Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from!

Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“.

It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it!

you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work

So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field.

indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole von business is on our agenda Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

As I have already replied to Hans’ post, I don’t mind using the “double braces solution” as an easy workaround to distinguish German “vons” and Dutch “vans”. But I am not sure if that solution solves the problems with French and Spanish name attributes as well. Greetings Jörg On 28.01.2015 04:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In Spanish, we have other practice.

One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} This allows the author to use a free form for each component without resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of the use of the language field (or setting).

Alan

On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:50:44 +0100 Hans Hagen wrote:

...

On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:

...

Hi Jörg,

Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from!

Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not "von Goethe“.

It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it!

you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work

...

So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field.

indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format

btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole von business is on our agenda

Hans

----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

On 1/28/2015 4:10 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of "particles", in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In Spanish, we have other practice.

One solution is to make the rendering depend on the "language=" bibtex field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in: author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname} This allows the author to use a free form for each component without resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out. Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of the use of the language field (or setting).

I've added a tracer for authors. The main problem with authors is that bibtex was never set up to multilingual (there has been written and talked a lot about it by Jean Micheakl Hufflen who made a multilingual bibtex). So, in order to deal with names, the way to go is roughly as follows: - multiple names are separated by 'and' (hopefully there are no parents who names their kids This and That) - when a name has no commas it gets analyzed and split according to some heuristics ... there is not that much we can do about it (but we try to catch as much as possible) ... this can mean that a particle is seen as one of the surnames but that is seldom a big issue as eventually the name gets combined again - in the mkiv publication subsystem names travel around in their split form: initials, firstnames, vons (bad name, might change), surnames, juniors (also bad name), so Alan Xavier von Braslau jr becomes [A X] [Alan Xavier] [von] [Braslau] [jr] Now that can can never be robust expecially when names are written in full, so that is why we look at names with commas differnetly: Alan Xavier Braslau becomes [A X] [Alan Xavier] [] [Braslau] [] but Xavier Braslau, Alan becomes [A] [Alan] [] [Xavier Braslau] [] the snippets in a two element name is still analyzed according to some heuristics When there are more snippets (where {} indicates an empty snippet) the filling of the record depends on the amount of snippets. In principle you can have of them, including the initials if they are kind of special.) Keep in mind that there is nothing like a bibtex standard (and it's still beta anyway awaiting version 1). Here is a test: \startbuffer[mybib] @book{something-1, author = { Foo Bar von Something }, title = { Whatever 1 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-2, author = { Foo Bar von Something and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 2 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-3, author = { von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 3 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-4, author = { {}, von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 4 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-5, author = { {}, von Something, {}, Foo Bar and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 5 }, year = { 2015 } } @book{something-6, author = { {}, {von Something}, {}, Foo Bar, FoBa and John Doe }, title = { Whatever 6 }, year = { 2015 } } \stopbuffer \usemodule[art-01] \usebtxdataset[mybib.buffer] \starttext \showbtxdatasetcompleteness[standard] \page \showbtxdatasetauthors[standard] \stoptext Of course we can add all kind of manipulators when typesetting them, but adding all kind of complex tweaks to the input makes no sense: (1) I can't remember them as till now i never needed a bibliography myself, and (2) Alan can't document them because there are to many demands and options but above all (3) only one user will use that specific tweak and forgets about it after that specific thesis demand was met. Hans ps. As one has access to the loaded bib data it is always possible to writ every specific renderers given willingness to mess with Lua. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------