I'm was planning to write my master thesis in XeLaTeX until I discovered that ConTeXt can use the XeTeX engine. I need to use a lot of Hebrew - so Right to Left typing - and some linguistic glyphs and stuff. But from the wiki I understand there are still some issues with ConTeXt's XeTeX-awareness. Like the bookmarks "may result in some strangeness in certain documents" Can someone tell me what kind of strangeness? And XeTeX can't use "certain specials and other types of features" Can someone tell me what kind of "specials and types of features"? And now on this list there is a lot of talk about LuaTeX and Mark IV. So I wonder: Is it possible to use MarkIV and XeTeX engine at the same time? And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX? Thanks in advance, Adriaan Pater
Hi,
Like the bookmarks "may result in some strangeness in certain documents" Can someone tell me what kind of strangeness?
Many features like dvi / metapost may produce strange result. you can search the mailing list and you can find plenty of them.
And XeTeX can't use "certain specials and other types of features" Can someone tell me what kind of "specials and types of features"?
Like Lua language programming, controling nodes/tokens. But writing a thesis will not use these features.
And now on this list there is a lot of talk about LuaTeX and Mark IV. So I wonder: Is it possible to use MarkIV and XeTeX engine at the same time?
no.
And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX?
Since XeTeX does not provide most of the LuaTeX features. Yue Wang
Thanks for the answers! Especially the tip about searching the mailing list!
And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX?
Since XeTeX does not provide most of the LuaTeX features.
Does LuaTeX support right to left utf-8 Hebrew typing with ttf/otf fonts? Would it be (much) more complicated than in XeTeX? Thanks again. Adriaan
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:12 PM, J.A.J. Pater
Does LuaTeX support right to left utf-8 Hebrew typing with ttf/otf fonts? Would it be (much) more complicated than in XeTeX?
LuaTeX has more features for RTL than XeTeX because it's one of the goals of the LuaTeX project. http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Arabic_and_Hebrew Wolfgang
J.A.J. Pater wrote:
Thanks for the answers! Especially the tip about searching the mailing list!
And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX?
Since XeTeX does not provide most of the LuaTeX features.
Does LuaTeX support right to left utf-8 Hebrew typing with ttf/otf fonts? Would it be (much) more complicated than in XeTeX?
it should work; best communicate this with idris since he's the r-l expert and can help you to get started do you have example files/fonts? Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
I've already send a mail in reply to Hans, but it was to big since I attached the TTF. I don't know if the moderator will approve of posting fonts. But it can also be found on the web: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=EzraSIL_Home So the moderator can drop my last mail, it was to extensive anyway. Installed on my computer [Ubuntu Intrepid 8.10] /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-sil-ezra/SILEOT.ttf I got the font working by adapting the ara-sty from http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Arabic_and_Hebrew to heb-sty (attached) I also adapted the example from the above link (attached as test.tex). I ran it with the minimals. Issues I still have: I don't know how to use Hebrew and Latin text next to each other. I don't like the font I get with \setlatin I don't want every word on a new page I don't have the faintest clue as to what I'm doing inside of heb-sty. What's important for me is to use hebrew text inside of latin text. I'd like to be able to do things like: \starttext This is the word for peace: \hebrew[שלם]. Isn't that what we all wish for? \stoptext Many thanks to Hans and Mojca! Adriaan. P.S. If you're interested in what I don't get in ara-sty casu quo heb-sty: 1. \mainlanguage[hebrew] The wiki: "Sets the main language to hebrew, so that translatable titles are translated to Arabic." What exactly does "translatable titles" mean in this senctence? The main language of my document is in Latin. 2a. Why all the following stuff: \starttypescript [serif] [hebrew] [name] \usetypescript[serif][fallback] \definefontsynonym [Serif] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBold] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBoldItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \stoptypescript 2b. What does serif mean? 3. I don't get the defining of the directional commands either. 4. I absolutely don't get what I'm doing here \definestartstop [hebrewpar] [commands=\Hebrew\HebrewParDir] \define[1]\RT {{\Hebrew\HebrewTextDir#1}}
J.A.J. Pater wrote:
I've already send a mail in reply to Hans, but it was to big since I attached the TTF. I don't know if the moderator will approve of posting fonts. But it can also be found on the web: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=EzraSIL_Home So the moderator can drop my last mail, it was to extensive anyway. Installed on my computer [Ubuntu Intrepid 8.10] /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-sil-ezra/SILEOT.ttf
I got the font working by adapting the ara-sty from http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Arabic_and_Hebrew to heb-sty (attached) I also adapted the example from the above link (attached as test.tex). I ran it with the minimals.
Issues I still have: I don't know how to use Hebrew and Latin text next to each other. I don't like the font I get with \setlatin I don't want every word on a new page I don't have the faintest clue as to what I'm doing inside of heb-sty.
What's important for me is to use hebrew text inside of latin text. I'd like to be able to do things like:
\starttext This is the word for peace: \hebrew[שלם]. Isn't that what we all wish for? \stoptext
Many thanks to Hans and Mojca!
Adriaan.
P.S. If you're interested in what I don't get in ara-sty casu quo heb-sty:
1. \mainlanguage[hebrew] The wiki: "Sets the main language to hebrew, so that translatable titles are translated to Arabic." What exactly does "translatable titles" mean in this senctence? The main language of my document is in Latin.
2a. Why all the following stuff:
\starttypescript [serif] [hebrew] [name] \usetypescript[serif][fallback] \definefontsynonym [Serif] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBold] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBoldItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \stoptypescript
2b. What does serif mean?
3. I don't get the defining of the directional commands either.
4. I absolutely don't get what I'm doing here
\definestartstop [hebrewpar] [commands=\Hebrew\HebrewParDir]
\define[1]\RT {{\Hebrew\HebrewTextDir#1}}
attached a more efficient variant btw: = there will be a more high level par direction text dir changer = you can use the hebrew font also for latin = you can combine fonts into one font *using teh font fallback mechanism) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks very much Hans! I will start reading everything about fonts next week.
J.A.J. Pater wrote:
I've already send a mail in reply to Hans, but it was to big since I attached the TTF. I don't know if the moderator will approve of posting fonts. But it can also be found on the web: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=EzraSIL_Home So the moderator can drop my last mail, it was to extensive anyway. Installed on my computer [Ubuntu Intrepid 8.10] /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-sil-ezra/SILEOT.ttf
I got the font working by adapting the ara-sty from http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Arabic_and_Hebrew to heb-sty (attached) I also adapted the example from the above link (attached as test.tex). I ran it with the minimals.
Issues I still have: I don't know how to use Hebrew and Latin text next to each other. I don't like the font I get with \setlatin I don't want every word on a new page I don't have the faintest clue as to what I'm doing inside of heb-sty.
What's important for me is to use hebrew text inside of latin text. I'd like to be able to do things like:
\starttext This is the word for peace: \hebrew[שלם]. Isn't that what we all wish for? \stoptext
Many thanks to Hans and Mojca!
Adriaan.
P.S. If you're interested in what I don't get in ara-sty casu quo heb-sty:
1. \mainlanguage[hebrew] The wiki: "Sets the main language to hebrew, so that translatable titles are translated to Arabic." What exactly does "translatable titles" mean in this senctence? The main language of my document is in Latin.
2a. Why all the following stuff:
\starttypescript [serif] [hebrew] [name] \usetypescript[serif][fallback] \definefontsynonym [Serif] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBold] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \definefontsynonym [SerifBoldItalic] [Ezra SIL] [features=hebrew] \stoptypescript
2b. What does serif mean?
3. I don't get the defining of the directional commands either.
4. I absolutely don't get what I'm doing here
\definestartstop [hebrewpar] [commands=\Hebrew\HebrewParDir]
\define[1]\RT {{\Hebrew\HebrewTextDir#1}}
attached a more efficient variant
btw:
= there will be a more high level par direction text dir changer = you can use the hebrew font also for latin = you can combine fonts into one font *using teh font fallback mechanism)
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
So what I wanted was just: \environment heb-sty \starttext test1 {\switchtotypeface [hebrew] הָלַך} test2 \stoptext Thanks again! I'll be using MarkIV for my thesis with XeTeX as a fallback option. Adriaan.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
attached a more efficient variant
Hello Hans, I don't know anything about right-to-left typesetting, but is the result of this desired? (not sure if I copy-pasted properly) \sethebrew test \ConTeXt\ הָלַך test Mojca PS: I get tXeTnoC. I also get some funny results like disappearing words, but since I'm completely ignorant here, I won't even start complaining.
It works OK here: \sethebrew test3 \ConTeXt\ הָלַך test4 gives => test4 הָלַך test3 ConTeXt This is the way the macro is meant to be! I guess the tXeTnoC is indeed a result of improper copy-pasting. Unicode works with invisible formatting characters used to control bidirectional typesetting. [LTR: (U+202D); RTL: (U+203D); (U+202C) cancels the effect of the other two] Copy-pasting (@-mailing?) can be a problem since sometimes these characters fall away. The RTL unicode charater is missing from the text underneath so I guess that's the problem. Adriaan. Mojca Miklavec schreef:
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
attached a more efficient variant
Hello Hans,
I don't know anything about right-to-left typesetting, but is the result of this desired? (not sure if I copy-pasted properly)
\sethebrew test \ConTeXt\ הָלַך test
Mojca
PS: I get tXeTnoC. I also get some funny results like disappearing words, but since I'm completely ignorant here, I won't even start complaining.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
My guess was incorrect. I copy-pasted the underneath text into my test file and I got good results. No tXeTnoC. So here it just works like a charm. Grtz, Adriaan.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
attached a more efficient variant
Hello Hans,
I don't know anything about right-to-left typesetting, but is the result of this desired? (not sure if I copy-pasted properly)
\sethebrew test \ConTeXt\ הָלַך test
Mojca
PS: I get tXeTnoC. I also get some funny results like disappearing words, but since I'm completely ignorant here, I won't even start complaining. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:54 PM, J.A.J. Pater wrote:
My guess was incorrect. I copy-pasted the underneath text into my test file and I got good results. No tXeTnoC. So here it just works like a charm.
I'm sorry. I accidentally commented out \setcharactermirroring[1] while switching between XeTeX and LuaTeX. So this time just for fun: XeTeX doesn't know textdir command, so I commented out both textdir and setcharactermirroring. And then you get XtEConT with XeTeX :) :) :) Mojca PS: keep in mind that the problem lies in user-end not in engine, but I still find the result funny :) I used the wrong set of direction-switching commands, though it's still interesting that XeTeX and LuaTeX both accept input, but generate completely different results. (\pardir without \textdir has no influence in mkiv while it changes word stacking direction in XeTeX.)
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:54 PM, J.A.J. Pater wrote:
My guess was incorrect. I copy-pasted the underneath text into my test file and I got good results. No tXeTnoC. So here it just works like a charm.
I'm sorry. I accidentally commented out \setcharactermirroring[1] while switching between XeTeX and LuaTeX. So this time just for fun: XeTeX doesn't know textdir command, so I commented out both textdir and setcharactermirroring. And then you get XtEConT with XeTeX :) :) :)
xetex uses the etex bidi method (\beginL .. \endL and such)
I used the wrong set of direction-switching commands, though it's still interesting that XeTeX and LuaTeX both accept input, but generate completely different results. (\pardir without \textdir has no influence in mkiv while it changes word stacking direction in XeTeX.)
well, since they both use different rl machinery it can never be the same; Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
attached a more efficient variant
Hello Hans,
I don't know anything about right-to-left typesetting, but is the result of this desired? (not sure if I copy-pasted properly)
\sethebrew test \ConTeXt\ הָלַך test
Mojca
PS: I get tXeTnoC. I also get some funny results like disappearing words, but since I'm completely ignorant here, I won't even start complaining.
it should be ok if automirroring is on but even then one might expect some issues we will cook up a proper bidi support model in the oriental tex project (not so much the text, but how layout, boxed and other issues has to be dealt with) currently hartmut is revisioning all directional issues (we took some code from omega but it was not always properly/consistently acting in relation with backend issues in dvi/pdf) and when that is done i'll see what is needed (the main layout is not the issue, but more details like boxed stuff, think of llap and friends as well as spacing) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
J.A.J. Pater wrote:
And now on this list there is a lot of talk about LuaTeX and Mark IV. So I wonder: Is it possible to use MarkIV and XeTeX engine at the same time? And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX?
you could use both at the same time, but xetex uses mkii and luatex uses mkiv in principle mkii is frozen so new features and improvements will only happen in mkiv concerning bidi: luatex does this natively (based on omega/aleph code) while xetex does it the etex way which has some limitations (since mkiv/luatex is tested extensively in the oriental tex project it probably makes more sense to use mkiv) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:29 AM, J.A.J. Pater wrote:
I'm was planning to write my master thesis in XeLaTeX until I discovered that ConTeXt can use the XeTeX engine. I need to use a lot of Hebrew - so Right to Left typing - and some linguistic glyphs and stuff.
But from the wiki I understand there are still some issues with ConTeXt's XeTeX-awareness.
Like the bookmarks "may result in some strangeness in certain documents" Can someone tell me what kind of strangeness?
Do not worry about bookmarks. You can probably ask Hans to fix it if it doesn't work properly.
And XeTeX can't use "certain specials and other types of features" Can someone tell me what kind of "specials and types of features"?
I would not bother too much. One of the differences is that XeLaTeX has very good high-level support for changing fonts. That one is missing, but you can still do everything you need. In particular, if you are writing your thesis, those few additional lines that you might need for properly setting the font should not be a problem. XeLaTeX also has some support for OpenType math, but you don't need that.
And now on this list there is a lot of talk about LuaTeX and Mark IV. So I wonder: Is it possible to use MarkIV and XeTeX engine at the same time? And if not, why should (or shouldn't) I use MarkIV over XeTeX?
Minus of Mark IV: it's a bit unstable; problems are fixed quickly, but it's a bit annoying if your thesis doesn't compile one hour or day before the deadline (when you do the final run before you print the document and of course you have no backup of PDF). You can make sure that this doesn't happen by keeping two versions of ConTeXt installed just in case (one that you update and one that you don't). Plus of Mark IV: it has a very powerful programming language in the background. Fun to use (which could just as well be a minus if you become interested in playing with it or in fixing the problems instead of writing your thesis :) :) :) Very well supported. In case that you don't need advanced MKIV features, you can, at least in theory, use the same source to typeset the document with both XeTeX and LuaTeX. For documents that are not too complex this is what I usually do. If I stumble across a problem in one engine, there's still a chance that the other engine will work properly. Mojca
participants (5)
-
Hans Hagen -
J.A.J. Pater -
Mojca Miklavec -
Wolfgang Schuster -
Yue Wang