Re: [NTG-context] What do you miss in ConTeXt?
On Tue, Feb 09 2010, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
Thanks for the link, I failed to use it, as I have a ConTeXt/luaTeX versions distributed by ubuntu/jaunty, which seems to be too old. I should update and give it a try -- later.
Hello Sebastien, Anyway, it was not the latest version. In the current version of MKIV, there is no support for language-specifics, so there is actually no support for switching back from French to another language.
Did you have a look at the doc I posted yesterday?
Yes. I attach a recent t-french.tex file, that supports most of frenchb. In detail:
1. the 1. paragraph of each section is indented (LATEX only);
Done.
2. the default items in itemize environment
Done.
3. vertical spacing in general LATEX lists is shortened;
Done in itemize list.
4. footnotes are displayed "à la française".
What is this?
1. French hyphenation patterns are made active;
Done.
2. `double punctuation' (: ; ! ?) is made active
Done.
3. \today prints the date in French;
The command is "\date".
4. the caption names are translated into French (LATEX only);
Done.
5. the space after \dots is removed in French.
There is no space.
1. French quotation marks
\quotation{...}
2. A command \up is provided
M\high{me}
provided for ordinals: \ier, \iere, \iers, \ieres, \ieme, \iemes
Done.
the macro \bsc (boxed small caps) does this, e.g., Leslie~\bsc{Lamport}
\Bsc{...}
4. Commands \primo, \secundo, \tertio and \quarto print 1o, 2o, 3o, 4o. \FrenchEnumerate{6} prints 6o.
No.
obtained via the commands \No, \Nos, \no, \nos.
No.
6. Two commands are provided to typeset the symbol for \degre
No.
the TEXbook p. 134). The command \DecimalMathComma makes the comma
\enablemathpunctuation \disablemathpunctuation
8. A command \nombre was provided in 1.x versions to easily format numbers
\dorecurse6{ \setdigitmode \recurselevel\relax \recurselevel: \digits{12.345,90} \digits{12.345.000} \digits{1,23}\par}
9. frenchb has been designed to take advantage of the xspace package
No. Here a test file: \usemodule[french] \starttext \section{test} \Bsc{Test} \Bsc{Test} \startitemize \item 1\ier\ item \item «bla» \item bla \stopitemize \quotation{bla} hello: hello; hello? hello! \date \stoptext Cheers, Peter -- Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
On 9-2-2010 23:30, Peter Münster wrote:
In the current version of MKIV, there is no support for language-specifics, so there is actually no support for switching back from French to another language.
in mkiv language specific features are and will be part of the mechanisms themselves (and are then driven by mainlanguage)
1. the 1. paragraph of each section is indented (LATEX only); 2. the default items in itemize environment 3. vertical spacing in general LATEX lists is shortened;
to me these sounds like a design issue, not related to french
4. footnotes are displayed "à la française".
What is this?
2. `double punctuation' (: ; ! ?) is made active
remark: in mkiv not active using active chars as we have better mechanisms Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Feb 09 2010, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 9-2-2010 23:30, Peter Münster wrote:
In the current version of MKIV, there is no support for language-specifics, so there is actually no support for switching back from French to another language.
in mkiv language specific features are and will be part of the mechanisms themselves (and are then driven by mainlanguage)
Ok, then I just don't know how to use them...
1. the 1. paragraph of each section is indented (LATEX only); 2. the default items in itemize environment 3. vertical spacing in general LATEX lists is shortened;
to me these sounds like a design issue, not related to french
I agree. The module is just for people like Sebastien, who like to find the same things as in the frenchb LaTeX package. At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module. For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
2. `double punctuation' (: ; ! ?) is made active
remark: in mkiv not active using active chars as we have better mechanisms
Of course, the module is for mkiv and uses \setcharacterspacing. Cheers, Peter -- Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
On 10-2-2010 9:22, Peter Münster wrote:
At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module.
For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
the problem is that there's always a dominant language in a document and i think it's not a good idea to have french punctuation in a french quotation in an english text even if it's doable Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 09:33, Hans Hagen a écrit:
On 10-2-2010 9:22, Peter Münster wrote:
At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module.
For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
the problem is that there's always a dominant language in a document and i think it's not a good idea to have french punctuation in a french quotation in an english text even if it's doable
If I get you right, does it mean that if I want to write a bilingual, say french/english, document, I can't use \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and have to deal with punctuation issues manually for both languages ? -- Sébastien Mengin Édition et logiciels libres < Mise en page avec LaTeX > http://edilibre.net
On 10-2-2010 10:45, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 09:33, Hans Hagen a écrit:
On 10-2-2010 9:22, Peter Münster wrote:
At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module.
For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
the problem is that there's always a dominant language in a document and i think it's not a good idea to have french punctuation in a french quotation in an english text even if it's doable
If I get you right, does it mean that if I want to write a bilingual, say french/english, document, I can't use \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and have to deal with punctuation issues manually for both languages ?
you can use it, the question is, does it make sense to use different typo in a french quotation in an english text (just as one is not going to change the indentation then) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 10 February 2010 10:52:22 Hans Hagen wrote:
On 10-2-2010 10:45, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 09:33, Hans Hagen a écrit:
On 10-2-2010 9:22, Peter Münster wrote:
At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module.
For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
the problem is that there's always a dominant language in a document and i think it's not a good idea to have french punctuation in a french quotation in an english text even if it's doable
If I get you right, does it mean that if I want to write a bilingual, say french/english, document, I can't use \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and have to deal with punctuation issues manually for both languages ?
you can use it, the question is, does it make sense to use different typo in a french quotation in an english text (just as one is not going to change the indentation then)
Yes it does! The spacing, punctuation, hyphenation and other particularities associated with a language should be respected, even if there may be one "dominant" language. BTW, we should add "franglais", as this is often my dominant tongue! Alan
On 10-2-2010 11:12, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
On Wednesday 10 February 2010 10:52:22 Hans Hagen wrote:
On 10-2-2010 10:45, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 09:33, Hans Hagen a écrit:
On 10-2-2010 9:22, Peter Münster wrote:
At some point, someone should decide, what is triggered by \mainlanguage[fr] and what is provided by such french-module.
For me, "\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]" is the border case.
the problem is that there's always a dominant language in a document and i think it's not a good idea to have french punctuation in a french quotation in an english text even if it's doable
If I get you right, does it mean that if I want to write a bilingual, say french/english, document, I can't use \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and have to deal with punctuation issues manually for both languages ?
you can use it, the question is, does it make sense to use different typo in a french quotation in an english text (just as one is not going to change the indentation then)
Yes it does! The spacing, punctuation, hyphenation and other particularities associated with a language should be respected, even if there may be one "dominant" language.
some english <english quote> blabla <french quote> ... makes most sense to me if here we use the english quotes and not the french ones in the second case; hyphenation of course is always following the language anyhow, it's no big deal to configure things Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 10 February 2010 11:34:15 you wrote:
some english <english quote> blabla <french quote> ...
makes most sense to me if here we use the english quotes and not the french ones in the second case;
I don't do things that way, rather: “some English” followed by « une citation en français ». \quotation{some English} followed by {\fr\quotation{une citation en français}} but perhaps I am wrong and this is not correct style… Now I also understand why \quotation{\fr une citation} "doesn't work". Alan
Le 09 févr. 2010 à 11:48, Hans Hagen a écrit:
1. the 1. paragraph of each section is indented (LATEX only); 2. the default items in itemize environment 3. vertical spacing in general LATEX lists is shortened;
to me these sounds like a design issue, not related to french
Note that the frenchb package aims at typesetting documents following the instructions provided by the Imprimerie nationale guide. This guide is not a typographic code that rules for every case everywhere, but it is generally admitted as a good base for typesetting french documents. So true, there are design issue that are dealt by default if one loads that package in LaTeX. -- Sébastien Mengin Édition et logiciels libres < Mise en page avec LaTeX > http://edilibre.net
On Tuesday 09 February 2010 23:30:56 Peter Münster wrote:
Yes. I attach a recent t-french.tex file, that supports most of frenchb.
\usemodule[french]
Should not these rules automatically come into play through \mainlanguage[fr] rather than as a module? Also (for Hans), lang-ita.tex needs to be completed as follows: (the complete file is attached as Hans prefers this to diffs) $ diff lang-ita.tex lang-ita.tex.orig 268c268 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!chapter=Chapitre] ---
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!chapter=] 276c276 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!section=Section]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!section=] 284c284 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsection=Soussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsection=] 292c292 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsection=Soussoussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsection=] 300c300 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsubsection=Soussoussoussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsubsection=] 308c308 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!appendix=Annexe]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!appendix=]
BTW, in this file, some texts have trailing spaces and some do not. This is probably a bug? Also, some strings have unicode characters and some have escaped accents. This also should probably be cleaned-up. Alan
On 10-2-2010 8:55, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
$ diff lang-ita.tex lang-ita.tex.orig 268c268 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!chapter=Chapitre] ---
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!chapter=] 276c276 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!section=Section]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!section=] 284c284 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsection=Soussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsection=] 292c292 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsection=Soussoussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsection=] 300c300 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsubsection=Soussoussoussection]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!subsubsubsection=] 308c308 < \setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!appendix=Annexe]
\setuplabeltext [\s!fr] [\v!appendix=]
we can add them commented as i don't think that users want to see "Chapter 1" every time
BTW, in this file, some texts have trailing spaces and some do not. This is probably a bug?
no, figure~1 and so
Also, some strings have unicode characters and some have escaped accents. This also should probably be cleaned-up.
at some point we can have mkii and mkiv versions (keep in mind that mkii uses them too and there we can have whatever encoding) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 10 February 2010 09:36:10 Hans Hagen wrote:
we can add them commented as i don't think that users want to see "Chapter 1" every time
I have raised this question before. In fact, the strings *should* be defined by the language and some (other) mechanism (option) should activate them in the headings or not. Of course, they could (or should) by default be inactive.
BTW, in this file, some texts have trailing spaces and some do not. This is probably a bug?
no, figure~1 and so
So some trailing spaces are missing in the file that I sent... Alan
Le 09 févr. 2010 à 11:30, Peter Münster a écrit:
Hello Sebastien,
Hi Peter, Thanks for your interest.
Anyway, it was not the latest version.
In the current version of MKIV, there is no support for language-specifics, so there is actually no support for switching back from French to another language.
Did you have a look at the doc I posted yesterday?
Yes. I attach a recent t-french.tex file, that supports most of frenchb.
ok, I just installed the current ConTeXt minimal and your module works fine.
4. footnotes are displayed "à la française".
What is this?
The footnote mark is not superscript and followed by a dot.
5. the space after \dots is removed in French.
There is no space.
Comment: \dots actually produces a space, not \ldots.
1. French quotation marks
\quotation{...}
There I should probably dive in the doc cause I'd be surprised nothing is set up for the following issue, but, in French, if we have a quotation in a quotation, the second pair of quotation marks shoud appear as `` and ''. \quotation{Citation \quotation{exemple}} If I do \quotation{Citation ``exemple''} the result is incorrect.
4. Commands \primo, \secundo, \tertio and \quarto print 1o, 2o, 3o, 4o. \FrenchEnumerate{6} prints 6o.
obtained via the commands \No, \Nos, \no, \nos.
6. Two commands are provided to typeset the symbol for \degre
No.
You mean: not for the moment?
8. A command \nombre was provided in 1.x versions to easily format numbers
\dorecurse6{ \setdigitmode \recurselevel\relax \recurselevel: \digits{12.345,90} \digits{12.345.000} \digits{1,23}\par}
The third item of this example is correct in French. Thanks again, -- Sébastien Mengin Édition et logiciels libres < Mise en page avec LaTeX > http://edilibre.net
On Wednesday 10 February 2010 10:07:26 Sebastien Mengin wrote:
4. Commands \primo, \secundo, \tertio and \quarto print 1o, 2o, 3o, 4o. \FrenchEnumerate{6} prints 6o.
obtained via the commands \No, \Nos, \no, \nos.
6. Two commands are provided to typeset the symbol for \degre
No.
You mean: not for the moment?
Of course, should be 1°, 2°. I believe that "No" means that \primo, \secundo, ... and \No, \Nos, ... make absolutely NO sense in mkiv, nor does \degre as we have unicode input. Nothing, of course, prevents a user from defining \degre, etc. if he/she prefers to write input in this way. (I suppose that one could take a similar position on other, traditional TeX definitions like \ldots and many others...) Alan
Am 10.02.10 10:07, schrieb Sebastien Mengin:
1. French quotation marks
\quotation{...}
There I should probably dive in the doc cause I'd be surprised nothing is set up for the following issue, but, in French, if we have a quotation in a quotation, the second pair of quotation marks shoud appear as `` and ''.
\quotation{Citation \quotation{exemple}}
If I do \quotation{Citation ``exemple''} the result is incorrect.
\quotation{Citation \quote{exemple}} Wolfgang
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 03:04, Wolfgang Schuster a écrit:
Am 10.02.10 10:07, schrieb Sebastien Mengin:
1. French quotation marks
\quotation{...}
There I should probably dive in the doc cause I'd be surprised nothing is set up for the following issue, but, in French, if we have a quotation in a quotation, the second pair of quotation marks shoud appear as `` and ''.
\quotation{Citation \quotation{exemple}}
If I do \quotation{Citation ``exemple''} the result is incorrect.
\quotation{Citation \quote{exemple}}
Right, thanks. I'd like to be able to do « Citation ``citation'' », though. (Put clearly, I'm not sure I like the \quotaion{} mecanism.) At the moment, the : `` actually prints literally, instead of printing an english left double-quote. -- Sébastien Mengin Édition et logiciels libres < Mise en page avec LaTeX > http://edilibre.net
On Thursday 11 February 2010 11:10:19 Sebastien Mengin wrote:
Le 10 févr. 2010 à 03:04, Wolfgang Schuster a écrit:
Am 10.02.10 10:07, schrieb Sebastien Mengin:
1. French quotation marks
\quotation{...}
There I should probably dive in the doc cause I'd be surprised nothing is set up for the following issue, but, in French, if we have a quotation in a quotation, the second pair of quotation marks shoud appear as `` and ''.
\quotation{Citation \quotation{exemple}}
If I do \quotation{Citation ``exemple''} the result is incorrect.
\quotation{Citation \quote{exemple}}
Right, thanks. I'd like to be able to do « Citation ``citation'' », though. (Put clearly, I'm not sure I like the \quotaion{} mecanism.)
At the moment, the : `` actually prints literally, instead of printing an english left double-quote.
In this case, use: « Citation “citation” » Alan
participants (5)
-
Alan BRASLAU -
Hans Hagen -
Peter Münster -
Sebastien Mengin -
Wolfgang Schuster