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Structure of titles in MkIV

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Michał Goliński

14 Oct 2014 14 Oct '14

1:49 p.m.

Given a file: \setupinteraction[state=start] \placebookmarks[part,chapter][part,chapter] \starttext \startchapter[title=Prologue, number=no] \input knuth \stopchapter \startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoptext I would expect to have the logical structure of titles as follows: + Prologue + Part A - + One + Epilogue i.e., "Epilogue" should be at the highest level, as "Prologue" is. Context gives me an Epilogue that is a child of "Part A". Is it possible to have the chapter "Epilogue" not be a child of "Part A"? Best regards Michał Goliński

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Alan BRASLAU

15 Oct 15 Oct

9:42 a.m.

Hello, Structure (sectioning) is a question of hierarchical level, there is nothing special about the names "part" or "chapter" except setups that reflect common usage. I place Prologue and Epilogue at the "part" level. Better yet, I situate them in "frontmatter" and "backmatter". Maybe my use is incorrect but this is how I understand things. There is a mechanism for automatic section level which is very nice. Hans describes this in: "levels-001.tex and levels-002.tex in the test suite to see how to use relative sectioning." Alan On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:49:36 +0200 Michał Goliński wrote:

Given a file:

\setupinteraction[state=start] \placebookmarks[part,chapter][part,chapter]

\starttext

\startchapter[title=Prologue, number=no] \input knuth \stopchapter

\startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

\startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter

\stoptext

I would expect to have the logical structure of titles as follows:

+ Prologue + Part A - + One + Epilogue

i.e., "Epilogue" should be at the highest level, as "Prologue" is. Context gives me an Epilogue that is a child of "Part A".

Is it possible to have the chapter "Epilogue" not be a child of "Part A"?

Best regards Michał Goliński

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Alan BRASLAU

9:45 a.m.

Quoting from the thread "Adaptive section structuring" of September 2012:

%\definesectionlevels[default][section,subsection,subsubsection] \definesectionlevels[mine][title,subject,subsubject]

\starttext

\startsectionlevel [title=Alpha] \startsectionlevel [title=Beta] \startsectionlevel [title=Gamma] \stopsectionlevel \stopsectionlevel \stopsectionlevel

\startsectionlevel [mine] [title=One] \startsectionlevel [mine] [title=Two] \startsectionlevel [mine] [title=Three] \stopsectionlevel \stopsectionlevel \stopsectionlevel

\stoptext

Wolfgang

Alan On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:42:19 +0200 Alan BRASLAU wrote:

Hello,

Structure (sectioning) is a question of hierarchical level, there is nothing special about the names "part" or "chapter" except setups that reflect common usage.

I place Prologue and Epilogue at the "part" level. Better yet, I situate them in "frontmatter" and "backmatter". Maybe my use is incorrect but this is how I understand things.

There is a mechanism for automatic section level which is very nice. Hans describes this in: "levels-001.tex and levels-002.tex in the test suite to see how to use relative sectioning."

Alan

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:49:36 +0200 Michał Goliński wrote:

...
Given a file:

\setupinteraction[state=start] \placebookmarks[part,chapter][part,chapter]

\starttext

\startchapter[title=Prologue, number=no] \input knuth \stopchapter

\startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

\startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter

\stoptext

I would expect to have the logical structure of titles as follows:

+ Prologue + Part A - + One + Epilogue

i.e., "Epilogue" should be at the highest level, as "Prologue" is. Context gives me an Epilogue that is a child of "Part A".

Is it possible to have the chapter "Epilogue" not be a child of "Part A"?

Best regards Michał Goliński

-- Alan Braslau CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC CNRS URA 2464 Orme des Merisiers 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15 fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86 mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr

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Keith Schultz

2:25 p.m.

Hello All, First, let me say that the semantics of Book-making can be confusing as certain terms are used differently by different professionals. What has made it worse these terms have been convoluted by the computational adaptation of Book-making. A book generally has three divisions frontmatter, backmatter, and "main" text/body. These are made up of "parts". What belongs in these divisions are dependent on your field, tradition, and publishers style! Basically, Alan is on the mark. Second, Michal TeX and ConTeXt has a section leveling. That is part is the highest level. and chapters are always part of a part. So, you want the effect you need, you should either enclose the Prologue and Epilogue in the frontmatter and backmatter parts respectively, (See MWE below) or wrap them in a part environment. BUT, Michal I believe has a point. Or should I say has come across a FLAW, according to my view of things. ConTeXt should warn that once you use a chapter the part command should not be mixed. That is if one uses parts that Chapters must be embedded a Part! I adjusted Michals MWE and we get basically, what he expects, that is Prologue and Epilogue on the same level. But, without it surrounding part the Epilogue is set at an level that is under "Part A"-level the Epilogue. This would mean that the \stoppart for "Part A" or my inserted "Part B" is not being recognize and the "sectioning Counter" being adjusted properly! Or an error should be flagged! Yes, there are easy work arounds! This FLAW is intrinsic to the intelligence of ConTeXt. Most of us would be using front- and backmatter, sectioning commands, numbering schemes and thereby avoiding it. But, ConTeXt should warn of the false behaviour. Below I have a MWE to show the FLAW. MWE: \starttext \placecontent %\startfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect \startchapter[title=Prologue] \input knuth \stopchapter %\stopfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect \startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart % FLAW: sectioned under Part A should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title={not at top level}] \input knuth \stopchapter \startpart[title={Part B}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart % \startbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect % FLAW: sectioned under Part B should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter %\stopbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect \stoptext regards Keith.

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Alan BRASLAU

4:10 p.m.

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:25:11 +0200 Keith Schultz wrote:

BUT, Michal I believe has a point. Or should I say has come across a FLAW, according to my view of things. ConTeXt should warn...

I was warned (a few years ago) on the mailing list NOT to place any text outside of structure elements. For example, \starttext This is a forward. \startchapter[title=First chapter] \input tufte \stopchapter This is a an afterthought. \stoptext Of course, this works, but I was warned that everything might not work correctly as expected outside of the structure, since such text is "nowhere". I cannot remember the example of what had gone haywire, but I leaned my lesson (and started systematically using \start\stop for everything, well, not for paragraphs as I find that a bit too heavy...). As to WARNINGS: ConTeXt generally silently ignores incorrect coding, unknown options, etc. One might call for all sorts of "bells and whistles" but these come at a performance cost so I have also learned to do without them. Of course, this sometimes makes debugging one's errors a bit more difficult, but after 10 years or so of practice one will no longer make many errors! (one of my favorites still is "\startext") ;-) Alan

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Keith J. Schultz

16 Oct 16 Oct

11:32 a.m.

Hi Alan, In a way I agree one can live without the added syntax and semantic error reporting, But, as you say you have been using it for ten years. All are not that lucky. Then there are those beginners that simply have no idea what is going on. Because they do not know ConTeXt, TeX, or LaTeX, etc. This problem is more severe due to the fact that IMHO the documentation for ConTeXt does not state many things! Error checking should not be given up for performance sake! That is not good practice. If one can not wait a minute longer for a 500 page document, somebody has to learn to chill down. Been around Computers since the mid 80s, so I know what it is like to wait 5 minutes for a three page document, waiting for a TeX system render and create all those files to print it on a dot-matrix printer. Not, to mention the printing itself in graphics mode for the best quality. regards Keith. Am 15.10.2014 um 16:10 schrieb Alan BRASLAU :

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:25:11 +0200 Keith Schultz wrote:

...
BUT, Michal I believe has a point. Or should I say has come across a FLAW, according to my view of things. ConTeXt should warn...

I was warned (a few years ago) on the mailing list NOT to place any text outside of structure elements. For example,

[snip, snip]

I cannot remember the example of what had gone haywire, but I leaned my lesson (and started systematically using \start\stop for everything, well, not for paragraphs as I find that a bit too heavy...).

As to WARNINGS: ConTeXt generally silently ignores incorrect coding, unknown options, etc. One might call for all sorts of "bells and whistles" but these come at a performance cost so I have also learned to do without them. Of course, this sometimes makes debugging one's errors a bit more difficult, but after 10 years or so of practice one will no longer make many errors! (one of my favorites still is "\startext") ;-)

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Hans Hagen

1:25 p.m.

On 10/16/2014 11:32 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:

Hi Alan,

In a way I agree one can live without the added syntax and semantic error reporting, But, as you say you have been using it for ten years. All are not that lucky. Then there are those beginners that simply have no idea what is going on. Because they do not know ConTeXt, TeX, or LaTeX, etc. This problem is more severe due to the fact that IMHO the documentation for ConTeXt does not state many things!

Error checking should not be given up for performance sake! That is not good practice. If one can not wait a minute longer for a 500 page document, somebody has to learn to chill down.

well, i can't wait a minute longer anyway, as there are many ways to invalidate structure the amount of checking would not only become enourmous but also make the code pretty much unreadable also, having chapters outside parts can happen ... you really don't know how often i have to write styles that violate all principles of structuring (including consistent font usage) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

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Keith Schultz

3:34 p.m.

Hi Hans, I am aware of the process and code involved. I am also, aware that one can have chapters outside of parts. It is just that the inexperienced are not aware of the sectioning levels and how they works, and are surprised by the results. I can ive with the way things are. Just a thought. Keep up the good work. regards Keith. Am 16.10.2014 um 13:25 schrieb Hans Hagen : [snip, snip.]

anyway, as there are many ways to invalidate structure the amount of checking would not only become enourmous but also make the code pretty much unreadable

also, having chapters outside parts can happen ... you really don't know how often i have to write styles that violate all principles of structuring (including consistent font usage)

Hans

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Alan BRASLAU

17 Oct 17 Oct

11:13 a.m.

No, I have not been using ConTeXt for ten years and I am still learning! I am just referring to the fact pointed out by Herbert Simon (The Architecture of Complexity) that it takes about 10 years for anyone to learn any new subject. I have come to understand that ConTeXt's speed in processing does not have to do with our patience, like waiting for a dot-matrix printer. (By the way, I started doing text processing using teletypes way before TeX was even invented. Remember nroff?) ConTeXt is also used for automated text-processing on the fly and this has to be fast. It is said that clang gives many more and much better error and warning messages than gcc. ConTeXt has all sorts of "trackers" that can be enabled if desired to get lots of debugging information. http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Trackers Maybe there is room for someone to write a program (or script in lua!) similar to "lint" that can check for errors. I do not believe that it is worth the effort, though, as it will quickly become obsolete. Alan On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 11:32:29 +0200 "Keith J. Schultz" wrote:

Hi Alan,

In a way I agree one can live without the added syntax and semantic error reporting, But, as you say you have been using it for ten years. All are not that lucky. Then there are those beginners that simply have no idea what is going on. Because they do not know ConTeXt, TeX, or LaTeX, etc. This problem is more severe due to the fact that IMHO the documentation for ConTeXt does not state many things!

Error checking should not be given up for performance sake! That is not good practice. If one can not wait a minute longer for a 500 page document, somebody has to learn to chill down.

Been around Computers since the mid 80s, so I know what it is like to wait 5 minutes for a three page document, waiting for a TeX system render and create all those files to print it on a dot-matrix printer. Not, to mention the printing itself in graphics mode for the best quality.

regards Keith.

Am 15.10.2014 um 16:10 schrieb Alan BRASLAU :

...
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:25:11 +0200 Keith Schultz wrote:

...
BUT, Michal I believe has a point. Or should I say has come across a FLAW, according to my view of things. ConTeXt should warn...

I was warned (a few years ago) on the mailing list NOT to place any text outside of structure elements. For example,

[snip, snip]

...
I cannot remember the example of what had gone haywire, but I leaned my lesson (and started systematically using \start\stop for everything, well, not for paragraphs as I find that a bit too heavy...).

As to WARNINGS: ConTeXt generally silently ignores incorrect coding, unknown options, etc. One might call for all sorts of "bells and whistles" but these come at a performance cost so I have also learned to do without them. Of course, this sometimes makes debugging one's errors a bit more difficult, but after 10 years or so of practice one will no longer make many errors! (one of my favorites still is "\startext") ;-)

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Michał Goliński

18 Oct 18 Oct

1:57 p.m.

Thank you very much for the example. Indeed, now the structure of the table of contents looks OK. Unfortunately, it breaks the PDF bookmarks (which was initially my main concern). For this file (based on your MWE), I get only Prologue in the bookmarks, although the links in the table of contents work perfectly: \setupinteraction[state=start] \placebookmarks[part,chapter][part,chapter][number=no] \starttext \placecontent \startfrontmatter \startchapter[title=Prologue] \input knuth \stopchapter \stopfrontmatter \startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart \startbackmatter \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter \stopbackmatter \stoptext Regards Michał W dniu 2014-10-15 14:25, Keith Schultz napisał(a):

Below I have a MWE to show the FLAW.

MWE:

\starttext \placecontent

%\startfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\startchapter[title=Prologue] \input knuth \stopchapter

%\stopfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

% FLAW: sectioned under Part A should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title={not at top level}] \input knuth \stopchapter

\startpart[title={Part B}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

% \startbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

% FLAW: sectioned under Part B should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter

%\stopbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\stoptext

regards Keith.

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Alan BRASLAU

19 Oct 19 Oct

5:03 p.m.

The following seems to work well for me. Unfortunately, I do not remember what references.bookmarks.preroll accomplishes but searching the sources (and the mailing list archives) should help answer this question... % % make chapter bookmarks visible when opening document % \setupinteraction[state=start,option=bookmark,contrastcolor=interactioncolor] \setupinteractionscreen[option=bookmark] \placebookmarks[part,chapter,title,section,subject,subsection][part,chapter,title] \enabledirectives[references.bookmarks.preroll] I must point-out that whereas adobe reader handles bookmarks, many other pdf viewers do not. Alan On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:57:23 +0200 Michał Goliński wrote:

Thank you very much for the example. Indeed, now the structure of the table of contents looks OK. Unfortunately, it breaks the PDF bookmarks (which was initially my main concern). For this file (based on your MWE), I get only Prologue in the bookmarks, although the links in the table of contents work perfectly:

\setupinteraction[state=start] \placebookmarks[part,chapter][part,chapter][number=no]

\starttext \placecontent

\startfrontmatter \startchapter[title=Prologue] \input knuth \stopchapter \stopfrontmatter

\startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

\startbackmatter \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter \stopbackmatter

\stoptext

Regards Michał

W dniu 2014-10-15 14:25, Keith Schultz napisał(a):

...
Below I have a MWE to show the FLAW.

MWE:

\starttext \placecontent

%\startfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\startchapter[title=Prologue] \input knuth \stopchapter

%\stopfrontmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\startpart[title={Part A}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

% FLAW: sectioned under Part A should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title={not at top level}] \input knuth \stopchapter

\startpart[title={Part B}] \startchapter[title=One] \input knuth \stopchapter \stoppart

% \startbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

% FLAW: sectioned under Part B should expect sectioning level 1 % or throw error that part needed here! \startchapter[title=Epilogue] \input knuth \stopchapter

%\stopbackmatter % uncomment line to show what you would expect

\stoptext

regards Keith.

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Alan BRASLAU
Hans Hagen
Keith J. Schultz
Keith Schultz
Michał Goliński