Mojca Miklavec wrote:

But generally, LuaTeX is much more suitable for such previews (only that there might be no "newshowfont" available yet - writing one is doable if you know what you're interested in).

My two cents: ConTeXt currenty uses smcp=yes,script=latn,onum=yes,liga=yes... while fontspec uses either Letters=SmallCaps Script=Latin Numbers=OldStyle Ligatures=Common or the same raw names as above. I would prefer the "human-readable" names as in fontspec, but ... well, the font calling mechanisms really need to improve in my opinion.

What fontspec achieves in one line like (copying from XeTeX list): \setmainfont[Script=Devanagari]{Sanskrit 2003} needs dozens of lines in ConTeXt (definefontfeature, define typescripts in two steps, ... brrrr)

So in case that some more features in XeTeX/LuaTeX change, do not be surprised too much ...

keep in mind that xetex and mkiv support will not be the same in all those aspects; i more or less expect users to use one or the other engine and then become familiar with its specific interfaces anyhow, a next version of mkiv will support more verbose options, script=slovenian smallcaps=true basically anything in the script, language and feature hashes (lowercased and de-spaced when compared) something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

Am 06.12.2007 um 14:48 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations)

I have not yet played with Lua, thus I can't follow your and Mojca's discussion at that point. But to have a handy way to switch on/off oldstyle figures would be very useful!

"numbers=oldstyle" shouldn't be considered as a theoretical possibility, it is needed quite often.

Steffen

The following should work, can't test it at the moment \definefontfeature[enableoldstyle][onum=yes] \definefontfeature[disableoldstyle][onum=no] \starttext 123 \setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456 \setfontfeature{disableoldstyle} 789 \stoptext Wolfgang

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

Am 06.12.2007 um 15:37 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

...

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

...

Am 06.12.2007 um 14:48 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations)

I have not yet played with Lua, thus I can't follow your and Mojca's discussion at that point. But to have a handy way to switch on/off oldstyle figures would be very useful!

"numbers=oldstyle" shouldn't be considered as a theoretical possibility, it is needed quite often.

Steffen

The following should work, can't test it at the moment

\definefontfeature[enableoldstyle][onum=yes] \definefontfeature[disableoldstyle][onum=no]

\starttext

123 \setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456 \setfontfeature {disableoldstyle} 789

\stoptext

you mean typeset with Lua, right? with XeTeX it yields

! Undefined control sequence. l.20 \setfontfeature!

This is a new feature introduced only for LuaTeX, not XeTeX and allows you to choose a different fontfeature in your document. Could be used overwrite the defaults for \os and \sc. \def\os{\setfonrfeature{oldstyle}} \def\sc{\setfonrfeature{smallscaps}} Wolfgang

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

...

Am 06.12.2007 um 14:48 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations) I have not yet played with Lua, thus I can't follow your and Mojca's discussion at that point. But to have a handy way to switch on/off oldstyle figures would be very useful!

"numbers=oldstyle" shouldn't be considered as a theoretical possibility, it is needed quite often.

Steffen

The following should work, can't test it at the moment

\definefontfeature[enableoldstyle][onum=yes] \definefontfeature[disableoldstyle][onum=no]

\starttext

123 \setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456 \setfontfeature{disableoldstyle} 789

\stoptext

btw, these are attributes and therefore can be used grouped 123 {\setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456} 789 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:09:33 +0100 Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

...

Am 06.12.2007 um 14:48 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations) I have not yet played with Lua, thus I can't follow your and Mojca's discussion at that point. But to have a handy way to switch on/off oldstyle figures would be very useful!

"numbers=oldstyle" shouldn't be considered as a theoretical possibility, it is needed quite often.

Steffen The following should work, can't test it at the moment

\definefontfeature[enableoldstyle][onum=yes] \definefontfeature[disableoldstyle][onum=no]

\starttext

123 \setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456 \setfontfeature{disableoldstyle} 789

\stoptext btw, these are attributes and therefore can be used grouped

123 {\setfontfeature{enableoldstyle} 456} 789

Is it also possible to inherit the values from the previuos change, e.g. I have enabled smallcaps and I want to enable oldstyle numerals with another command, I tried this but the old setting is forgotten and only the new setting work, how can I do this.

\usetypescript[palatino] \setupbodyfont[palatino]

\definefontfeature[caps][smcp=yes,lnum=yes] \definefontfeature[onum][onum=yes]

\def\sc{\setfontfeature{caps}} \def\os{\setfontfeature{onum}}

\starttext

Text 123 \sc Text 123 \os Text 123

i assume ... Text 123 {\sc Text 123 \os Text} 123 ... is meant

\stoptext

accumulated features is something on the agenda, but we need a proper definition interface for that; sometimes one wants to accumulate, sometines not; sometime one even wants to kill features

PS: Will the smallcaps key also work in a feature release of the latin modern fonts, thid didn't work at the moment and I was forced to use the Pagella fonts.

maybe there will be a lmroman10 once that has the features merged Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

Am 06.12.2007 um 14:48 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations)

I have not yet played with Lua, thus I can't follow your and Mojca's discussion at that point. But to have a handy way to switch on/off oldstyle figures would be very useful!

"numbers=oldstyle" shouldn't be considered as a theoretical possibility, it is needed quite often.

which is why we have oldstyle=yes ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

Well, to be honest, I wanted to ask you to do something similar to what you did with enco-utf :) once you finish the mkiv interface. That is, to auto-generate the list of feature mappings, so that the interface may remain the same in XeTeX as it is in LuaTeX, like \defineotflanguagesynonym[slovenian][slv] \defineotfscriptsynonym[latin][latn] then, language=dutch can switch on the ij ligature in LM in XeTeX as well :)

hm, first of all i don't want to see otf in any name of a command; today otf is the gospel but tomorrow ... after all, mkiv can have features for type one and tfm too concerning language and script names ... of course there will be some standard, and it may mean that for xetex there will be a huge list of such mappings; however, i prefer to do the xetex part once the luatex (mkiv) part is stable; then we can see what subset of functionality can be provided there; keep in mind that in luatex i can be way more tolerant with names (for instance, name:lmroman10-regular and name:lmroman10regular and name:lmroman10reg can all be supported and the same is true for features ... smallcaps Small Caps Smallcaps ...

(At least someone needs to fight for the rights of XeTeX users :) :) :) :)

sure

...

i more or less expect users to use one or the other engine and then become familiar with its specific interfaces

That's true when people use LaTeX :) That fame of ConTeXt (write once, use everywhere) should not be dropped at once :(

we should distinguish between typesetting related features and engine specific things; we should also keep in mind that some things simply are too different in engines which makes supporting both a pain; so, in practice there will be engine dependent features not being supported (for the sake of shareability or simply because implementing similar mechanisms takes ages); the same is true for pdftex/luatex ... of course pdftex will be supported, but take hz/protruding ... in mkiv i will completely redo that because it has different datastructures

...

anyhow, a next version of mkiv will support more verbose options,

script=slovenian smallcaps=true

Great :)

...

basically anything in the script, language and feature hashes (lowercased and de-spaced when compared)

What about ['fin2'] = 'Terminal Forms #2', ['fin3'] = 'Terminal Forms #3', ['ccmp'] = 'Glyph Composition/Decomposition', ? :) :) :)

Glyph Composition/Decomposition=true Glyph Composition/Decomposition=true Glyph Composition Decomposition=true GlyphCompositionDecomposition=true

(Not to be considered a serious question of course :)

well, it's the way smallcaps=true is handled -)

...

something numbers=oldstyle could be supported but i see no real reason for it since then we end up in endless lists of possibilities (given all kind of combinations)

Some examples: numbers=monospaced (+tnum) numbers=proportional (+pnum) numbers=lowercase/oldstyle (+onum) numbers=uppercase/lining (+lnum) numbers=[no]slashedzero (+zero)

too messy, esp if one wants proportional uppercase lining numbers with a slashed zero; of course one can have duplicate keys but then one also needs a negation thing ... i prefer the featuresets

letters=normal letters=uppercase (+case)

Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

2007/12/6, Mojca Miklavec :

On 12/6/07, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

...

Hi,

when in february 2006 I asked for an alternative to fontspec that could show me opentype features, Adam wrote:

I find that the lcdf typetools are a tremendous help: otfinfo -f ~/Library/Fonts/WarnockPro-Regular.otf and I can test the features with: \showfont["Warnock Pro: +smcp"]

Today this showfont-line doesn't work anymore:

\definetypeface[oneliner][rm][Xserif][Warnock Pro][default]

\starttext

\oneliner Test WQG 0196

\showfont["Warnock Pro: +smcp"]

\stoptext

Someone knows what to do?

(I wasn't aware of such usage ...)

In this specific case you could use \showfont[SerifCaps] (if your ConTeXt version is newer than 2007.10.29)

The general approach would be something like: \definefontfeature[mine][smcp=yes] \definefontsynonym[a][name:Warnock Pro][features=mine] \showfont[a] (grep the sources for definefontfeature)

One question for Hans: would it be possible (make sense) to make this work? \showfont[name:Iwona][features=mine]

I want such a feature for \setupbodyfont, e.g. \setupbodyfont[myfont] use the fonfeatures define in the typescript \setupbodyfont[myfont][features=oldstyle] choose oldstyle figures instead of the default setting in the typescript, this requires at the moment always a second typescript with oldstyle numerals. It would also nice to map \sc to \setfontfeature{smallcaps} because ConTeXts smallcaps fontsynonym works only for roman typeface and \os should use the oldstyle fontfeature, it use currently a math font except I use \variant or define a alternative typescript.

Perhaps there should be some kind of "raw" prefix introduced (again): \definefontsynonym[a][raw:Warnock Pro:mapping=tex-text;+smcp]

But generally, LuaTeX is much more suitable for such previews (only that there might be no "newshowfont" available yet - writing one is doable if you know what you're interested in).

My two cents: ConTeXt currenty uses smcp=yes,script=latn,onum=yes,liga=yes... while fontspec uses either Letters=SmallCaps Script=Latin Numbers=OldStyle Ligatures=Common or the same raw names as above. I would prefer the "human-readable" names as in fontspec, but ... well, the font calling mechanisms really need to improve in my opinion.

What fontspec achieves in one line like (copying from XeTeX list): \setmainfont[Script=Devanagari]{Sanskrit 2003} needs dozens of lines in ConTeXt (definefontfeature, define typescripts in two steps, ... brrrr)

So in case that some more features in XeTeX/LuaTeX change, do not be surprised too much ...

And even worse both engines have their own default values for fonts. Wolfgang

Am 06.12.2007 um 12:32 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

In this specific case you could use \showfont[SerifCaps]

Nice! What about other fonts, are there other arguments besides SerifCaps ? Steffen

On Dec 6, 2007 5:09 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

Am 06.12.2007 um 12:32 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

...

The general approach would be something like: \definefontfeature[mine][smcp=yes] \definefontsynonym[a][name:Warnock Pro][features=mine] \showfont[a] (grep the sources for definefontfeature)

hmm ... the only hit is in /base/font-ini.mkii (and font-ini.tex)

\def\mkdefinefontfeature#1% #2 {\setvalue{\??fa#1}} % {#2}

\definefontfeature [default] [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,trep=yes] % texligatures=yes,texquotes=yes \definefontfeature [smallcaps] [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,trep=yes,smcp=yes] % texligatures=yes,texquotes=yes \definefontfeature [oldstyle] [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,trep=yes,onum=yes] % texligatures=yes,texquotes=yes font-otf.lua:-- \definefontfeature[calt][language=nld,script=latn,mode=node,calt=yes,clig=yes,rlig=yes] font-otf.lua:-- \definefontfeature[dflt][language=nld,script=latn,mode=node,calt=no, clig=yes,rlig=yes] font-otf.lua:-- \definefontfeature[fixd][language=nld,script=latn,mode=node,calt=no, clig=yes,rlig=yes,ignoredrules={44,45,47}] s-pre-64.tex: \definefontfeature[default][method=node,script=latn,language=dflt,liga=yes,onum=yes,kern=yes] (Might change!!!) Mojca

2007/12/6, Steffen Wolfrum :

I ran sudo ctxtools --updatecontext about one hour ago and all this that you write here can't be found (s-pre-63.tex is the latest) ...

Where did you mean should I "grep the sources for definefontfeature" ??

Steffen

Am 06.12.2007 um 17:35 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

...

On Dec 6, 2007 5:09 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

...

Am 06.12.2007 um 12:32 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

...

The general approach would be something like: \definefontfeature[mine][smcp=yes] \definefontsynonym[a][name:Warnock Pro][features=mine] \showfont[a] (grep the sources for definefontfeature)

font-ini.tex, font.mkii, font-ini.mkiv and font-ini.lua and all without grep :-) Another interseting file for fonts is font-otf.lua. Wolfgang

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

2007/12/6, Mojca Miklavec :

...

On Dec 6, 2007 5:09 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

...

Am 06.12.2007 um 12:32 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

...

The general approach would be something like: \definefontfeature[mine][smcp=yes] \definefontsynonym[a][name:Warnock Pro][features=mine] \showfont[a] (grep the sources for definefontfeature)

hmm ... the only hit is in /base/font-ini.mkii (and font-ini.tex)

\def\mkdefinefontfeature#1% #2 {\setvalue{\??fa#1}} % {#2} \definefontfeature [default] [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,trep=yes] % texligatures=yes,texquotes=yes

\definefontfeature [smallcaps] [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,trep=yes,smcp=yes] % texligatures=yes,texquotes=yes

I would prefer something like

\definefontfeature [smallcaps] [default] % inherit settings from default [smcp=yes] % add smcp to the feature list

something like that ... keep in mind that you don't need to define a font then, {\setfontfeature{smallcaps}Some Text} will automatically give you that featureset so in practice we can do with only a few real font definitions; mkiv keeps track of such dunamic features and efficiently caches data; we sped up luatex + mkiv some 30% and when using dynamic features with huge fonts (zapfino, arab, chinese) we can even gain more (our sample mk.tex went from 29 seconds down to some 20 seconds and dynamic arab gives another 2 a 3 seconds; a fast console another 2+ seconds but that's another story; just in case you wondered why it took a while for this beta to surface) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

Am 06.12.2007 um 18:55 schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

something like that ...

keep in mind that you don't need to define a font then,

{\setfontfeature{smallcaps}Some Text}

will automatically give you that featureset so in practice we can do with only a few real font definitions; mkiv keeps track of such dunamic features and efficiently caches data;

we sped up luatex + mkiv some 30% and when using dynamic features with huge fonts (zapfino, arab, chinese) we can even gain more

wow!!

gave us a good feeling too -) luatex will always be slower than pdftex, if only because it has wide fonts, multi-directional typesetting etc; to some extend this can be compensatd by using less fonts, but then, more features also has a price Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------