Hi all, this seems to be a general TeX-problem, not ConTeXt specific, but I'm not sure I understand the details. Here's the problem: when I use mainlanguage[de], I can type "` to get German opening quotes, \quotedblbase „. However, this characters needs some (a lot of) kerning when it comes before, e.g., W or V; it is too far away from the following character. Most font-designers don't care about German typography, so I tried and added the kerning manually. But this works only if I input the character directly via the keyboard or via the symbolic name, it does not work with "` (nor with \quotation{ }); language German seems to make the ` active. In emacs, I find "` the most convenient way to input German quotes. Is there a way to have kerning with this input, or do I have to change my habits? Best Thomas
Am 2006-01-23 um 13:18 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz:
Is there a way to have kerning with this input, or do I have to change my habits?
Sorry, I can't help you with kerning at the moment, but you should change your habits and never type quote signs, but use \quote{} and \quotation{}. Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://contextgarden.net http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
Sorry, I can't help you with kerning at the moment, but you should change your habits and never type quote signs, but use \quote{} and \quotation{}.
What is the advantage? (And unfortunately, it doesn't help with my problem...) Thomas
On 1/23/06, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Hi all,
this seems to be a general TeX-problem, not ConTeXt specific, but I'm not sure I understand the details. Here's the problem: when I use mainlanguage[de], I can type "` to get German opening quotes, \quotedblbase „. However, this characters needs some (a lot of) kerning when it comes before, e.g., W or V; it is too far away from the following character. Most font-designers don't care about German typography, so I tried and added the kerning manually. But this works only if I input the character directly via the keyboard or via the symbolic name, it does not work with "` (nor with \quotation{ }); language German seems to make the ` active. In emacs, I find "` the most convenient way to input German quotes. Is there a way to have kerning with this input, or do I have to change my habits?
On the transferred page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern there are already kerning issues listed. If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page. I agree that kerning "German" style of quotation marks was (and perhaps still is?) horrible, perhaps slightly better in LM than it was in CM. We use them as well (to be honest - 95% of LaTeX-people uses the wrong ones). I use \quotation because of these reasons: - I never know which is the proper command to get the desired quotation marks with combination of ", `, ', ... - I trust Hans that the macro is optimized in such a way that the hyphenation and everything else on the word boundary will be OK (although I'm not sure what happens to kerning) - I can simply redefine the quotation marks or the style of text to be used, for example it's easy to replace them by guillemet/guillemot alternative if necessary It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a} vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner. Mojca
Am 2006-01-25 um 13:45 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:
It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a} vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner.
No, it's more like a decision between \em and \it - \em and \quotation {} are logical markup, \it and "' are optical. And I hope we agree that markup should be logical, whether HTML or TeX... Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://contextgarden.net http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
Mojca, thanks a lot for you reply! On Jan 25, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On the transferred page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern there are already kerning issues listed.
If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page.
Well, the problem is that this is not really relevant to my question. Of course it would be good to have proper kerning for German quotes implemented in the fonts, Latin Modern or any other font. But the way this is now handled in lang-ger.tex, this kerning is not applied in ConTeXt! So even if LM were perfect in this regard, we still wouldn't have properly kerned German quotes (am I making sense here, or is this not clear enough?).
I agree that kerning "German" style of quotation marks was (and perhaps still is?) horrible, perhaps slightly better in LM than it was in CM. We use them as well (to be honest - 95% of LaTeX-people uses the wrong ones).
I use \quotation because of these reasons: - I never know which is the proper command to get the desired quotation marks with combination of ", `, ', ... - I trust Hans that the macro is optimized in such a way that the hyphenation and everything else on the word boundary will be OK (although I'm not sure what happens to kerning) - I can simply redefine the quotation marks or the style of text to be used, for example it's easy to replace them by guillemet/guillemot alternative if necessary
It might be a personal decision which ones one uses, but I would say that using "` vs. \quotation is approximately the same as using \"{a} vs ä. All of them work, but the second variant is somewhat cleaner.
OK, this makes sense, especially your third point. If you use ConTeXt exclusively, quotation{} and \quote{} may have advantages, but you can't copy/paste text into, say, a file to be processed with LaTeX. And I use emacs + auctex, so I don't have to remember what I need to type, it is done automatically. OTOH, I could also configure auctex to write \quotation{ when I type ". It this meant that I would get proper kerning, I'd go for it... Thanks, and best Thomas
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
On the transferred page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Wishes_for_Latin_Modern there are already kerning issues listed.
If the problem on that page is not expressed clearly enough (and if the proposal is not OK), add your comments to that page.
Well, the problem is that this is not really relevant to my question. Of course it would be good to have proper kerning for German quotes implemented in the fonts, Latin Modern or any other font. But the way this is now handled in lang-ger.tex, this kerning is not applied in ConTeXt! So even if LM were perfect in this regard, we still wouldn't have properly kerned German quotes (am I making sense here, or is this not clear enough?).
Sorry. I understood the problem (I also asked a couple of times on the list already about it), but I probably really misunderstood the point of your question. How is the \quotedblbase V? (I just tried it for the first time.) Mojca
Well, if there was correct kerning in the font, then ConTeXt could at least attempt to do the right thing. As is, all efforts in this area are wasted because not even the font itself is right. Until that is fixed, there is no gain to be had from fixing the current status quo (the font should also have a kern between \quotesinglebase and itself, btw) Cheers, Taco
Taco, I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this kerning issue for one of the (commercial) fonts I'm using often. If ConTeXt doesn't handle this kerning issue right, there is no incentive to correct the situation because nobody gains anything from improvements. So my 2 cents: First ConTeXt has to handle kerning in this situation, then we can go and improve the fonts. And of course you're right: \quotesinglebase cum suis has to have kerning as well. Best Thomas On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Well, if there was correct kerning in the font, then ConTeXt could at least attempt to do the right thing. As is, all efforts in this area are wasted because not even the font itself is right. Until that is fixed, there is no gain to be had from fixing the current status quo (the font should also have a kern between \quotesinglebase and itself, btw)
Cheers, Taco
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Taco,
I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this
Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition below with a font that has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue as well, of course ). Should work, but I cannot test due to lack of fonts ;-) Cheers, Taco \unprotect \newif\ifsmartquotationfonts \def\dohandlequotation#1#2% {\ifsmartquotationfonts #2% \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut \languageparameter#1% \else \ifdim\lastskip=\quotationsignal \unskip\hskip\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{interquotation}% \else #2% \fi \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut \symbol[#1]% \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\quotationsignal \fi }% \protect
Thanks Taco!! On Jan 27, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition below with a font that has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue as well, of course ).
In the source file? This doesn't seem to work :-( I tried (with mainlanguage[de]): „W ==> proper kerning "`W ==> no kerning \quotation{W} ==> no kerning \quotedblbase W ==> proper kerning Thanks Thomas
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Taco,
I hate doing it, but I have to disagree ;-) I was trying to fix this
Ok. Thomas, can you try the definition below with a font that has correct kerning? (you have to set \smartquotationfontstrue as well, of course ). Should work, but I cannot test due to lack of fonts ;-)
Cheers, Taco
\unprotect \newif\ifsmartquotationfonts
\def\dohandlequotation#1#2% {\ifsmartquotationfonts #2% \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut \languageparameter#1% \else \ifdim\lastskip=\quotationsignal \unskip\hskip\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{interquotation}% \else #2% \fi \ifhmode \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\zeropoint \fi \strut \symbol[#1]% \penalty\!!tenthousand\hskip\quotationsignal \fi }% \protect
the current quotation/quote/speech handler is now replaced by the delimited text one although that one is not yet activated; so any adaptions should take place there; i added an option: \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font] test \quotation{test} test or: \definedelimitedtext[whatever][quotation] \setupdelimitedtext[whatever][method=font] xxx \whatever{xx} xxx When using that option, it's all up to the font ... I'll generate a new 'current' Hans Hans -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file: ! Undefined control sequence. \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation \c!leftquotation } \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `} W l.45 "`W Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}? Best Thomas On Jan 27, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
I'll generate a new 'current'
Hans
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
! Undefined control sequence. \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation \c!leftquotation } \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `} W l.45 "`W
Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
indeed, let's root out the active " i'll fix that Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
! Undefined control sequence. \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation \c!leftquotation } \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `} W l.45 "`W
Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
does this work? (enco-fde) \installcompoundcharacter "` {\startdelimitedtext[\v!quotation]} \installcompoundcharacter "' {\stopdelimitedtext} Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
alas no, still getting the same error. Thomas On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:16 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Hmm, the new version now doesn't compile if I have "` in my file:
! Undefined control sequence. \@cc@"` ->{\handlequotation \c!leftquotation } \next ->\getvalue {\@cc@ \string "\string `} W l.45 "`W
Subtle way of making people use \quotation{}?
does this work? (enco-fde)
\installcompoundcharacter "` {\startdelimitedtext[\v!quotation]} \installcompoundcharacter "' {\stopdelimitedtext}
Hans
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
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Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
alas no, still getting the same error.
then ... wait for the update Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with the latest 'n greatest, I get: \quotation{W} ==> no kerning "`W ==> output is just the quotedblbase, the W is gobbled, and in the log, I see: (\end occurred inside a group at level 1) ### simple group (level 1) entered at line 45 ({) ### bottom level line 45 being where the "` occurs. Sorry for all the confusion I caused Thomas On Jan 27, 2006, at 8:48 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
then ... wait for the update
Hans
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with the latest 'n greatest, I get:
\quotation{W} ==> no kerning
"`W ==> output is just the quotedblbase, the W is gobbled, and in the log, I see:
(\end occurred inside a group at level 1)
### simple group (level 1) entered at line 45 ({) ### bottom level
line 45 being where the "` occurs.
well, your self-punishment has been increased with another ten wiki pages i'll fix it, for the moment say: \def\nohandledelimitedtext {\delimitedtextparameter} btw, we need another mapping of "' anyway, so i'll make an update Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen wrote:
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Oh my, I shouldn't have asked about this problem... Sorry, but with the latest 'n greatest, I get:
\quotation{W} ==> no kerning
For this to work, \dofontdrivendelimited has to be defined like so: \unprotect \def\dofontdrivendelimited#1% {\languageparameter{\c!left\currentdelimitedtext}% #1% \languageparameter{\c!right\currentdelimitedtext}} \protect Both "\groupedcommand" and "\symbol" intersect stuff that breaks kerning, so should be avoided. Cheers, Taco
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: can you test \installcompoundcharacter "` {\delimitedtext[\v!quotation]} \installcompoundcharacter "' {} btw, currewntly the method=font is mistakenly the default; in the update you need to expliclty say \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font] Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan 30, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
can you test
\installcompoundcharacter "` {\delimitedtext[\v!quotation]} \installcompoundcharacter "' {}
AFAICS, this doesn't change anything, the first character after the "` is still gobbled, and I get the same warning in the log file. Thomas
participants (5)
-
Hans Hagen -
Henning Hraban Ramm -
Mojca Miklavec -
Taco Hoekwater -
Thomas A. Schmitz