On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008, Maurí­cio wrote:

...

Hi,

Just because I'm curious: how could a typesetting system like TeX be if it was created today? luatex http://www.luatex.org

There is ant http://ant.berlios.de/

River detection, which is done by ant, but not by TeX. http://osdir.com/ml/tex.context/2001-01/msg00057.html

-- luigi

Am 30.05.2008 um 09:12 schrieb Yue Wang:

advanced software, like InDesign

Well, ... Steffen

On 5/30/08, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

Am 30.05.2008 um 09:12 schrieb Yue Wang:

...

advanced software, like InDesign

well ... <cough> ...

There is no denying that many advanced features in InDesign are missing in TeX(like) related software. What's more, the internationalization of InDesign is better.

Steffen ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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Am 2008-05-30 um 14:31 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid:

...

There is no denying that many advanced features in InDesign are missing in TeX(like) related software. What's more, the internationalization of InDesign is better.

Can you give a precise list of the features contained in InDesign that are missing in (lua)TeX or which TeX does not support well?

- much faster (i.e. I don't need to wait for several TeX runs e.g. if I need to check if some tweak fixed my page breaking) - optical (vs. metrical) kerning - a GUI ;-) and thus layout by "let's try how it looks" - layout definition (I struggle with ConTeXt's \setuplayout every time) - better page breaking constraints (you can define in your style sheets "keep n lines together" and "keep this together with the next paragraph) - PDF/X output - color profile conversions - image processing features like crop paths, feathered edges, drop shadow (in ConTeXt I need to prepare such in Photoshop in the right size - but I guess it would be possible to write a module that uses ImageMagick to achieve something similar) Problems in TeX *and* InDesign: - Unicode handling (composed and decomposed UTF-8 with or without BOM, UTF-16, different line endings) Working with InDesign as a developer I know that TeX's documentation is far better. Adobe's developer docs (e.g. on API, XML format, InDesign tagged text) are incomplete and errorneous. I don't think you can call the one or other "better" or "more advanced", it's just a different approach, and I choose the right tool for every project. (I.e. I only use TeX if I need the same content in different versions, if I can automate something or for books.) But the layout applications like InDesign (there's still also ugly old QuarkXPress, coming-of-age Scribus and some others) have learned a lot of the former domains of TeX, like registers and toc generation. There are still some areas where you need a programmable system, even trivia like chapter dependant running titles (in ConTeXt: headertexts). Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

Am 2008-05-31 um 04:20 schrieb luigi scarso:

...

There are still some areas where you need a programmable system, even trivia like chapter dependant running titles (in ConTeXt: headertexts). Isn't indesign programmable too ? I know people who use it in an automatic workflow for db publishing

You can use JavaScript or COM (on Windows) or AppleScript (also Python/ Ruby appscript) on OSX. Been there, done that. And I use XML for partly automatic typesetting (mostly for event calendars of magazines) - but InDesign's XML processing is very slow and very picky about the encoding (at least CS2 on OSX). Even more picky with "InDesign tagged text" files. But what I meant was: let the running title depend on the chapter title or the like - that's easy with TeX, but I know no automatable way in InDesign. Last night I remembered two more things that TeX can't do, but every layout app can: - text flow around other elements (images) - really working multiple-column layout Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

On 5/31/08, luigi scarso wrote:

...

Last night I remembered two more things that TeX can't do, but every layout app can: - text flow around other elements (images) \parshape ?

I forword an email to the professor. it discuss some of the points together with some examples. \parshape is not enough for arbitary page layout.

...

- really working multiple-column layout in context columnset with two pass strategy

columnset cannot solve most of the problems:) if you want advanced page layout justification, TeX is not sufficient.

-- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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- much faster (i.e. I don't need to wait for several TeX runs e.g. if I need to check if some tweak fixed my page breaking) On average true for manual composition, maybe false for automatic workflow

- optical (vs. metrical) kerning hz ? - a GUI ;-) and thus layout by "let's try how it looks" true - layout definition (I struggle with ConTeXt's \setuplayout every time) maybe

- better page breaking constraints (you can define in your style sheets "keep n lines together" and "keep this together with the next paragraph) maybe (hans/taco help needed here )

- PDF/X output - color profile conversions maybe. They can be after, in prepress , so can be sensate to keep separate this from tex.

- image processing features like crop paths, feathered edges, drop shadow (in ConTeXt I need to prepare such in Photoshop in the right size - but I guess it would be possible to write a module that uses ImageMagick to achieve something similar) maybe

-- luigi

- a GUI ;-) and thus layout by "let's try how it looks" Almost true. Here it seems that there is a way to embed latex in scribus http://wiki.scribus.net/index.php/Working_with_latex_frames

Also http://lists.scribus.info/pipermail/scribus/2007-January/024109.html -- luigi

Hi, What problem do you have with XeTeX, I can see nothing in your log file. Greetings Wolfgang On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Yanli Li wrote:

TeXExec | processing document 'hello' TeXExec | no ctx file found TeXExec | tex processing method: context TeXExec | TeX run 1 TeXExec | writing option file hello.top TeXExec | using randomseed 598 TeXExec | tex engine: xetex TeXExec | tex format: cont-en This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./hello.tex

ConTeXt ver: 2008.05.31 12:20 MKII fmt: 2008.6.3 int: english/english

language : language en is active system : cont-new loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.tex systems : beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkii) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-mtx.tex)) system : cont-old loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-old.tex loading : Context Old Macros ) system : cont-fil loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-fil.tex loading : Context File Synonyms ) system : cont-sys loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/user/cont-sys.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-tmf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-siz.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-otf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) bodyfont : 12pt rm is loaded language : patterns nl->ec:ec->1->2:3 fr->ec:ec->2->2:3 de->ec:ec->3->2: 3 it->ec:ec->4->2:3 pt->ec:ec->5->2:3 hr->ec:ec->6->2:3 pl->ec:ec->7->2:3 cz->e c:ec->8->2:3 sk->ec:ec->9->2:3 sl->ec:ec->10->2:3 ru->ec:ec->12->2:3 en->ec:ec-

...

13->2:3 uk->ec:ec->14->2:3 us->ec:ec->15->2:3 agr->ec:ec->16->2:3 da->ec:ec->1 7->2:3 sv->ec:ec->18->2:3 af->ec:ec->19->2:3 no->ec:ec->20->2:3 deo->ec:ec->21- 2:3 es->ec:ec->25->2:3 ca->ec:ec->26->2:3 la->ec:ec->27->2:3 ro->ec:ec->28->2: 3 tr->ec:ec->29->2:3 fi->ec:ec->31->2:3 hu->ec:ec->32->2:3 loaded specials : tex,postscript,rokicki loaded system : hello.top loaded (./hello.top specials : loading definition file dpx (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-dpx.tex specials : loading definition file fdf (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.mkii)) specials : fdf loaded ) specials : fdf,dpx loaded specials : loading definition file xet (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-xet.tex) specials : fdf,dpx loaded ) systems : begin file hello at line 1 fonts : resetting map file list fonts : using map file: original-base fonts : using map file: lm-math fonts : using map file: lm-rm fonts : using map file: texnansi-base fonts : using map file: ec-base fonts : using map file: qx-base fonts : using map file: t5-base fonts : using map file: 8r-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-euler fonts : using map file: original-public-lm (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.mkii)) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.tex loading : Context Sorting Macros (languages) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.mkii)) [1.1] systems : end file hello at line 3 ) (see the transcript file for additional information) Output written on hello.pdf (1 page). Transcript written on hello.log. TeXUtil | parsing file hello.tui TeXUtil | shortcuts : 169 TeXUtil | expansions: 308 TeXUtil | reductions: 0 TeXUtil | divisions : 0 TeXUtil | loaded files: 1 TeXUtil | temporary files: 0 TeXUtil | commands: 21 TeXUtil | programs: 0 TeXUtil | tuo file saved TeXExec | TeX run 2 TeXExec | writing option file hello.top TeXExec | using randomseed 598 TeXExec | tex engine: xetex TeXExec | tex format: cont-en This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./hello.tex

ConTeXt ver: 2008.05.31 12:20 MKII fmt: 2008.6.3 int: english/english

language : language en is active system : cont-new loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.tex systems : beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkii) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-mtx.tex)) system : cont-old loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-old.tex loading : Context Old Macros ) system : cont-fil loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-fil.tex loading : Context File Synonyms ) system : cont-sys loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/user/cont-sys.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-tmf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-siz.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-otf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) bodyfont : 12pt rm is loaded language : patterns nl->ec:ec->1->2:3 fr->ec:ec->2->2:3 de->ec:ec->3->2: 3 it->ec:ec->4->2:3 pt->ec:ec->5->2:3 hr->ec:ec->6->2:3 pl->ec:ec->7->2:3 cz->e c:ec->8->2:3 sk->ec:ec->9->2:3 sl->ec:ec->10->2:3 ru->ec:ec->12->2:3 en->ec:ec-

...

13->2:3 uk->ec:ec->14->2:3 us->ec:ec->15->2:3 agr->ec:ec->16->2:3 da->ec:ec->1 7->2:3 sv->ec:ec->18->2:3 af->ec:ec->19->2:3 no->ec:ec->20->2:3 deo->ec:ec->21- 2:3 es->ec:ec->25->2:3 ca->ec:ec->26->2:3 la->ec:ec->27->2:3 ro->ec:ec->28->2: 3 tr->ec:ec->29->2:3 fi->ec:ec->31->2:3 hu->ec:ec->32->2:3 loaded specials : tex,postscript,rokicki loaded system : hello.top loaded (./hello.top specials : loading definition file dpx (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-dpx.tex specials : loading definition file fdf (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.mkii)) specials : fdf loaded ) specials : fdf,dpx loaded specials : loading definition file xet (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-xet.tex) specials : fdf,dpx loaded ) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) (./hello.tuo) systems : begin file hello at line 1 fonts : resetting map file list fonts : using map file: original-base fonts : using map file: lm-math fonts : using map file: lm-rm fonts : using map file: texnansi-base fonts : using map file: ec-base fonts : using map file: qx-base fonts : using map file: t5-base fonts : using map file: 8r-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-euler fonts : using map file: original-public-lm (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.mkii)) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.tex loading : Context Sorting Macros (languages) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.mkii)) [1.1] systems : end file hello at line 3 ) (see the transcript file for additional information) Output written on hello.pdf (1 page). Transcript written on hello.log. TeXUtil | parsing file hello.tui TeXUtil | shortcuts : 169 TeXUtil | expansions: 308 TeXUtil | reductions: 0 TeXUtil | divisions : 0 TeXUtil | loaded files: 1 TeXUtil | temporary files: 0 TeXUtil | commands: 21 TeXUtil | programs: 0 TeXUtil | tuo file saved TeXExec | runtime: 1.852353

my hello.tex file:

\starttext Hello World! \stoptext

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Yanli Li wrote:

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

Hi,

What problem do you have with XeTeX, I can see nothing in your log file.

I got some warnnings when compiling it today, but i still got a pdf output. Moreover, i cannot get a pdf output when i add some PPCHTEX statements to it. I intend to how to remove the warnnings?

Try the advice from Mojca in the other thread "several warnings after updating ConTeXt and LM fonts" today and make a example with the PPCTEX problem. Wolfgang

Hi, Put the attached two map files in your TeX directory, the path for them is "$TEXMF/fonts/map/dvipdfm/lm", I think there are no map files in this directory and XeTeX loads the map files for dvips instead. Wolfgang On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Yanli Li wrote:

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Yanli Li wrote:

...

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

Hi,

What problem do you have with XeTeX, I can see nothing in your log file.

I got some warnnings when compiling it today, but i still got a pdf output. Moreover, i cannot get a pdf output when i add some PPCHTEX statements to it. I intend to how to remove the warnnings?

Try the advice from Mojca in the other thread "several warnings after updating ConTeXt and LM fonts" today and make a example with the PPCTEX problem.

Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

The problem still exists when i follow Mojca's advice to adjust the context. *stdin -> hello.pdf [1 ** WARNING ** This .map file looks like a dvips format fontmap file. ** WARNING ** -- Current input buffer is: lmbsy5 LMMathSymbols5-Bold "enclmmathsy ReEncodeFont"

*the information of the context version: TeXExec | current distribution: web2c TeXExec | context source date: unknown TeXExec | format path: /opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/web2c /opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/web2c TeXExec | start of analysis TeXExec | end of analysis TeXExec | TeXExec | TeXExec | version 6.2.0 - 1997-2006 - PRAGMA ADE/POD TeXExec | TeXUtil | version 9.1.0 - 1997-2005 - PRAGMA ADE/POD TeXExec | CtxTools | version 1.3.5 - 2004/2008 - PRAGMA ADE

my context minimals contain: XeTeX 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) pdfTeX 3.141592-1.40.7-2.2 (Web2C 7.5.6) LuaTeX, Version snapshot-0.25.3-2008041812 i think my context minimals version is 2008.5.31

why does it produce the warnings? And how to remove the problem?

Thanks!

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On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Yanli Li wrote:

my context minimals contain: XeTeX 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) pdfTeX 3.141592-1.40.7-2.2 (Web2C 7.5.6) LuaTeX, Version snapshot-0.25.3-2008041812 i think my context minimals version is 2008.5.31

why does it produce the warnings? And how to remove the problem?

Because nobody* submitted the 64-bit linux binaries to the repository yet. Neither for FreeBSD and Sun, but there have been less requests for the latter. linux, mac & windows should be OK. If you want, you can compile them yourself, but sooner or later they need to fly to the repository anyway. Mojca * to be read as: Taco or Peter

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Yanli Li wrote:

...

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

...

Hi,

What problem do you have with XeTeX, I can see nothing in your log file.

I got some warnnings when compiling it today, but i still got a pdf output. Moreover, i cannot get a pdf output when i add some PPCHTEX statements to it. I intend to how to remove the warnnings?

Try the advice from Mojca in the other thread "several warnings after updating ConTeXt and LM fonts" today and make a example with the PPCTEX problem.

Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________

13->2:3 uk->ec:ec->14->2:3 us->ec:ec->15->2:3 agr->ec:ec->16->2:3 da->ec:ec->1 7->2:3 sv->ec:ec->18->2:3 af->ec:ec->19->2:3 no->ec:ec->20->2:3 deo->ec:ec->21- 2:3 es->ec:ec->25->2:3 ca->ec:ec->26->2:3 la->ec:ec->27->2:3 ro->ec:ec->28->2: 3 tr->ec:ec->29->2:3 fi->ec:ec->31->2:3 hu->ec:ec->32->2:3 loaded specials : tex,postscript,rokicki loaded system : chemical.top loaded (./chemical.top specials : loading definition file dpx (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-dpx.tex specials : loading definition file fdf (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.mkii)) specials : fdf loaded ) specials : fdf,dpx loaded specials : loading definition file xet (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-xet.tex) specials : fdf,dpx loaded ) systems : begin file chemical at line 1 chapter : 1 Chemical system : module pictex loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-pictex.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/thrd-pic.tex)) system : module chemic loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-chemic.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/ppchtex.tex

13->2:3 uk->ec:ec->14->2:3 us->ec:ec->15->2:3 agr->ec:ec->16->2:3 da->ec:ec->1 7->2:3 sv->ec:ec->18->2:3 af->ec:ec->19->2:3 no->ec:ec->20->2:3 deo->ec:ec->21- 2:3 es->ec:ec->25->2:3 ca->ec:ec->26->2:3 la->ec:ec->27->2:3 ro->ec:ec->28->2: 3 tr->ec:ec->29->2:3 fi->ec:ec->31->2:3 hu->ec:ec->32->2:3 loaded specials : tex,postscript,rokicki loaded system : chemical.top loaded (./chemical.top specials : loading definition file dpx (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-dpx.tex specials : loading definition file fdf (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.mkii)) specials : fdf loaded ) specials : fdf,dpx loaded specials : loading definition file xet (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-xet.tex) specials : fdf,dpx loaded ) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) systems : begin file chemical at line 1 chapter : 1 Chemical system : module pictex loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-pictex.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/thrd-pic.tex)) system : module chemic loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-chemic.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/ppchtex.tex

13->2:3 uk->ec:ec->14->2:3 us->ec:ec->15->2:3 agr->ec:ec->16->2:3 da->ec:ec->1 7->2:3 sv->ec:ec->18->2:3 af->ec:ec->19->2:3 no->ec:ec->20->2:3 deo->ec:ec->21- 2:3 es->ec:ec->25->2:3 ca->ec:ec->26->2:3 la->ec:ec->27->2:3 ro->ec:ec->28->2: 3 tr->ec:ec->29->2:3 fi->ec:ec->31->2:3 hu->ec:ec->32->2:3 loaded specials : tex,postscript,rokicki loaded system : chemical.top loaded (./chemical.top specials : loading definition file dpx (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-dpx.tex specials : loading definition file fdf (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-fdf.mkii)) specials : fdf loaded ) specials : fdf,dpx loaded specials : loading definition file xet (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/spec-xet.tex) specials : fdf,dpx loaded ) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) (./chemical.tuo) systems : begin file chemical at line 1 chapter : 1 Chemical system : module pictex loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-pictex.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/thrd-pic.tex)) system : module chemic loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/m-chemic.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/ppchtex.tex

An example with the PPCTEX problem when i execute: *texexec --xtx chemial. *However, when i execute :texexec --pdf chemial i can get a pdf output. Why? TeXExec | processing document 'chemical' TeXExec | no ctx file found TeXExec | tex processing method: context TeXExec | TeX run 1 TeXExec | writing option file chemical.top TeXExec | using randomseed 978 TeXExec | tex engine: xetex TeXExec | tex format: cont-en This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./chemical.tex ConTeXt ver: 2008.05.31 12:20 MKII fmt: 2008.6.3 int: english/english language : language en is active system : cont-new loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.tex systems : beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkii) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-mtx.tex)) system : cont-old loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-old.tex loading : Context Old Macros ) system : cont-fil loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-fil.tex loading : Context File Synonyms ) system : cont-sys loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/user/cont-sys.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-tmf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-siz.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-otf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) bodyfont : 12pt rm is loaded language : patterns nl->ec:ec->1->2:3 fr->ec:ec->2->2:3 de->ec:ec->3->2: 3 it->ec:ec->4->2:3 pt->ec:ec->5->2:3 hr->ec:ec->6->2:3 pl->ec:ec->7->2:3 cz->e c:ec->8->2:3 sk->ec:ec->9->2:3 sl->ec:ec->10->2:3 ru->ec:ec->12->2:3 en->ec:ec- ppchtex : using PiCTeX and MetaPost )) [MP chemical-mpgraph.4000] [MP chemical-mpgraph.3999] fonts : resetting map file list fonts : using map file: original-base fonts : using map file: lm-math fonts : using map file: lm-rm fonts : using map file: texnansi-base fonts : using map file: ec-base fonts : using map file: qx-base fonts : using map file: t5-base fonts : using map file: 8r-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-euler fonts : using map file: original-public-lm (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.mkii)) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.tex loading : Context Sorting Macros (languages) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.mkii)) [1.1] systems : end file chemical at line 12 [flush and process chemical-mpgraph.mp afterwards] ) *stdin -> chemical.pdf [1 ** WARNING ** This .map file looks like a dvips format fontmap file. ** WARNING ** -- Current input buffer is: lmbsy5 LMMathSymbols5-Bold "enclmmathsy ReEncodeFont" > There are no valid font mapping entry for this font. ** WARNING ** >> Font file name "rm-lmr9" was assumed but failed to locate that font. ** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without .vf or "physical" font for PDF output...* Output file removed. (see the transcript file for additional information) Error 256 (driver return code) generating output; file chemical.pdf may not be valid. Transcript written on chemical.log. TeXExec | processing graphic 'chemical-mpgraph.mp' This is MetaPost, Version 1.004 (Web2C 7.5.5) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/web2c/natural.tcx) (chemical-mpgraph.mp [4000] [3999] metafun 2008-6-3 16:05 ) 2 output files written: chemical-mpgraph.3999 .. chemical-mpgraph.4000 Transcript written on chemical-mpgraph.log. TeXExec | runtime: 0.021704 TeXUtil | parsing file chemical.tui TeXUtil | shortcuts : 169 TeXUtil | expansions: 308 TeXUtil | reductions: 0 TeXUtil | divisions : 0 TeXUtil | loaded files: 1 TeXUtil | temporary files: 0 TeXUtil | commands: 22 TeXUtil | programs: 0 TeXUtil | tuo file saved TeXExec | TeX run 2 TeXExec | writing option file chemical.top TeXExec | using randomseed 978 TeXExec | tex engine: xetex TeXExec | tex format: cont-en This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./chemical.tex ConTeXt ver: 2008.05.31 12:20 MKII fmt: 2008.6.3 int: english/english language : language en is active system : cont-new loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.tex systems : beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkii) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-mtx.tex)) system : cont-old loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-old.tex loading : Context Old Macros ) system : cont-fil loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-fil.tex loading : Context File Synonyms ) system : cont-sys loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/user/cont-sys.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-tmf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-siz.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-otf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) bodyfont : 12pt rm is loaded language : patterns nl->ec:ec->1->2:3 fr->ec:ec->2->2:3 de->ec:ec->3->2: 3 it->ec:ec->4->2:3 pt->ec:ec->5->2:3 hr->ec:ec->6->2:3 pl->ec:ec->7->2:3 cz->e c:ec->8->2:3 sk->ec:ec->9->2:3 sl->ec:ec->10->2:3 ru->ec:ec->12->2:3 en->ec:ec- ppchtex : using PiCTeX and MetaPost )) [MP to PDF] (./chemical-mpgraph.4000 (./chemical.tuo)) [MP to PDF] (./chemical-mpgraph.3999) fonts : resetting map file list fonts : using map file: original-base fonts : using map file: lm-math fonts : using map file: lm-rm fonts : using map file: texnansi-base fonts : using map file: ec-base fonts : using map file: qx-base fonts : using map file: t5-base fonts : using map file: 8r-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-euler fonts : using map file: original-public-lm (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.mkii)) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.tex loading : Context Sorting Macros (languages) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.mkii)) [1.1] systems : end file chemical at line 12 [flush and process chemical-mpgraph.mp afterwards] ) stdin -> chemical.pdf [1 ** WARNING ** This .map file looks like a dvips format fontmap file. ** WARNING ** -- Current input buffer is: lmbsy5 LMMathSymbols5-Bold "enclmmathsy ReEncodeFont" > There are no valid font mapping entry for this font. ** WARNING ** >> Font file name "rm-lmr9" was assumed but failed to locate that font. ** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without .vf or "physical" font for PDF output... *Output file removed.* (see the transcript file for additional information) Error 256 (driver return code) generating output; file chemical.pdf may not be valid. Transcript written on chemical.log. TeXExec | processing graphic 'chemical-mpgraph.mp' This is MetaPost, Version 1.004 (Web2C 7.5.5) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/web2c/natural.tcx) (chemical-mpgraph.mp [4000] [3999] metafun 2008-6-3 16:05 ) 2 output files written: chemical-mpgraph.3999 .. chemical-mpgraph.4000 Transcript written on chemical-mpgraph.log. TeXExec | runtime: 0.182156 TeXUtil | parsing file chemical.tui TeXUtil | shortcuts : 169 TeXUtil | expansions: 308 TeXUtil | reductions: 0 TeXUtil | divisions : 0 TeXUtil | loaded files: 1 TeXUtil | temporary files: 0 TeXUtil | commands: 22 TeXUtil | programs: 0 TeXUtil | tuo file saved TeXExec | TeX run 3 TeXExec | writing option file chemical.top TeXExec | using randomseed 978 TeXExec | tex engine: xetex TeXExec | tex format: cont-en This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.998.1 (Web2C 7.5.6) \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./chemical.tex ConTeXt ver: 2008.05.31 12:20 MKII fmt: 2008.6.3 int: english/english language : language en is active system : cont-new loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.tex systems : beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkii) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-mtx.tex)) system : cont-old loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-old.tex loading : Context Old Macros ) system : cont-fil loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-fil.tex loading : Context File Synonyms ) system : cont-sys loaded (/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/user/cont-sys.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-tmf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-siz.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-otf.tex) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) bodyfont : 12pt rm is loaded language : patterns nl->ec:ec->1->2:3 fr->ec:ec->2->2:3 de->ec:ec->3->2: 3 it->ec:ec->4->2:3 pt->ec:ec->5->2:3 hr->ec:ec->6->2:3 pl->ec:ec->7->2:3 cz->e c:ec->8->2:3 sk->ec:ec->9->2:3 sl->ec:ec->10->2:3 ru->ec:ec->12->2:3 en->ec:ec- ppchtex : using PiCTeX and MetaPost )) [MP to PDF] (./chemical-mpgraph.4000 (./chemical.tuo)) [MP to PDF] (./chemical-mpgraph.3999) fonts : resetting map file list fonts : using map file: original-base fonts : using map file: lm-math fonts : using map file: lm-rm fonts : using map file: texnansi-base fonts : using map file: ec-base fonts : using map file: qx-base fonts : using map file: t5-base fonts : using map file: 8r-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-base fonts : using map file: original-ams-euler fonts : using map file: original-public-lm (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.tex (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-def.mkii)) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.tex loading : Context Sorting Macros (languages) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/tex/context/base/sort-lan.mkii)) [1.1] systems : end file chemical at line 12 [flush and process chemical-mpgraph.mp afterwards] ) stdin -> chemical.pdf [1 ** WARNING ** This .map file looks like a dvips format fontmap file. ** WARNING ** -- Current input buffer is: lmbsy5 LMMathSymbols5-Bold "enclmmathsy ReEncodeFont" > There are no valid font mapping entry for this font. ** WARNING ** >> Font file name "rm-lmr9" was assumed but failed to locate that font. ** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without .vf or "physical" font for PDF output... Output file removed. (see the transcript file for additional information) Error 256 (driver return code) generating output; file chemical.pdf may not be valid. Transcript written on chemical.log. TeXExec | processing graphic 'chemical-mpgraph.mp' This is MetaPost, Version 1.004 (Web2C 7.5.5) (/opt/context/tex/texmf-local/web2c/natural.tcx) (chemical-mpgraph.mp [4000] [3999] metafun 2008-6-3 16:05 ) 2 output files written: chemical-mpgraph.3999 .. chemical-mpgraph.4000 Transcript written on chemical-mpgraph.log. TeXExec | runtime: 0.14778 TeXUtil | parsing file chemical.tui TeXUtil | shortcuts : 169 TeXUtil | expansions: 308 TeXUtil | reductions: 0 TeXUtil | divisions : 0 TeXUtil | loaded files: 1 TeXUtil | temporary files: 0 TeXUtil | commands: 22 TeXUtil | programs: 0 TeXUtil | tuo file saved TeXExec | runtime: 3.689073 the chemical.tex file: \starttext \chapter{Chemical} \usemodules[pictex,chemic] \startchemical\chemical[SIX,B,B]\stopchemical \startcolor[blue] \startchemical \color[red]{\chemical[SIX,B,R14,RD25,RB36,RZ36][OH,COOH] } \stopchemical \stopcolor \stoptext

Am 30.05.2008 um 14:24 schrieb Yue Wang:

On 5/30/08, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

...

Am 30.05.2008 um 09:12 schrieb Yue Wang:

...

advanced software, like InDesign

well ... <cough> ...

There is no denying that many advanced features in InDesign are missing in TeX(like) related software. What's more, the internationalization of InDesign is better.

;o) ... you can buy a czech version or a polish version, for working with hebrew you may buy a hebrew or a middle eastern version ... and wasn't there also an arabic version to buy? With TeX you only have one piece for all ... and you can't even buy it. Steffen

Aditya Mahajan wrote:

...

Does anyone knows about novel or interesting ideas that could be used if we would write a new typesetting system from scratch?

River detection, which is done by ant, but not by TeX.

If there was a clear algorithm I could implement that in luatex. But I have not seen any whitepaper on the subject and I cannot read OCaml source well enough to understand what is going on ...

Hi Maurício, On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:12:21 -0600, Maurí­cio wrote:

Sorry to insist, but I would be really interested in approaches that are not just great things we could add to TeX.

For instance: would it be possible to have some kind of “layout engine” to which text processing would be just one among other plug-ins? I wonder what kind of information that engine should share with plug-ins. Do you think such system is possible? Or something else?

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. Don't hold back! Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523

Am 2008-06-12 um 20:26 schrieb Maurí cio:

The reason for a standard tag language is that the main engine should be able to do some operations on data, like breaking it in pieces like words, paragraphs or staffs on music scores, sometimes without fully understanding what exactly those are.

Possible outcomes: with a proper script language (Lua?), things like tables, multi-column text, and even a lot of crazy ideas could be really easy to write. Plug-ins results would be predictable, since they know nothing about the world except what the main engine has informed them.

As far as I can judge, music typesetting has completely different rules than text typesetting. Ok, you would "just" use another plugin. But then the plugins need a way to interact: captions in graphics (like in MetaPost today), lyrics in music etc. I myself wouldn't probably able to handle a MetaPost based system (or something similar) - even if I "speak" a bit of PostScript, I just don't think of graphics as formulae: To create e.g. an eye-shape, I can place two circles in Illustrator (or any other GUI program) and make an intersection. But I couldn't do the same programmatically, even if I approximately know what to do in this case. (You could answer to my mail on command lines, I should please try to become mathematically literate.) However, you need different parsers for different types of content - and at least the LilyPond folks would strongly suggest that some Lisp dialect is the right language for anything that needs parsing. I guess you know the quote that everyone who writes a parser will end re- creating a buggy subset of Lisp. (I don't speak Lisp. I don't speak TeX-the-language or Lua as well. But the latter seems easy.) I guess that's a inconvenience with TeX/MetaPost/LilyPond: they use similar, but different tagging, and those don't mix very well, esp. LilyPond with its Scheme snippets (I don't appreciate the use of single ' for strings and # for constants...). (Similar to HTML/PHP/ Smarty/JavaScript.) Of course you could use the same kind of tagging for all the different types of content - I guess you will end with something like OpenDocument (OOo.XML), that uses SVG for the graphics. Oh, and don't forget MathML (and the other XML dialects like PhysML and ChemML). Hm, perhaps we should embed MusicXML instead of LilyPond... You see: There is your unified system. XML rulez - for better or for worse. It's really no fun to write XML by hand. Perhaps you should try to help enhancing OpenOffice's typesetting? # Or Scribus? I heard Scribus has TeX boxes of late: A GUI DTP application where some boxes get rendered by LaTeX (meant for formulae, of course). AFAIK Scribus' file format is also XML-based. And maybe they even support plugins for more different boxes... Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

...

There is your unified system. XML rulez - for better or for worse. It's really no fun to write XML by hand.

But, as you said, TeX and Lilypond have a similar syntax. I belive they could share some kind of common language.

What you are thinking about is probably a "master document" scheme that would locally contextualize and process content. You would likely need some kind of "magic number" system for this to work. That would probably rule out older hardware because loading and unloading entire backends (or trying to run them all) is expensive on processing and memory. Also you have the potential for fork hell or dependency hell. IIRC there are MusicTeX, MusixTeX, Lillypond, etc. and some takes this and others that. There's an Omega package for typesetting pages from the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, Makor, and then there are fonts that do most of that themselves. You have EDMAC and Ledmac, but ConTeXt could probably handle the lemmatization even more intuitively. (I ought to try that.) So, which way is right, since coexistence may be a problem. One wants plain, the other LaTeX. And you can't necessarily intermix the two. I'm no XML guru, but that's the likely solution. Since everything has a history, then you have to build a community where picking and choosing this over that can be a problem; see, for example, http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris/entry/building_opensolaris_communities Then we get to GUI or not. It's probably the case that XML would be the likely candidate. In that case, Scribus or OOo would be a good place to look. But then you have all the complex dev issues with OOo. It can take a day to compile on anything that is more than two or three years old. In the end, a typesetting metalanguage would require a community to use it, deep wallets to fund it, or both. And you would have to ask people, some of whom still miss their old Lisp machines, Multics, and so on, to make a switch when they know that publishers already have their niche development tools in place. And DEK himself wanted to encourage not simply the finding of or agreement on the right answer to the question (why some hate the TeXbook) but the heuristics for finding "right" questions and their answers (why some love the TeXbook). But whose "right" wins in the design of the metalanguage? Because that would collide with good old Appendix D, Dirty Tricks, and everyone's dirty trick complicates interactions of plugins. It's like the old days when you saved memory on a machine by putting what looks to be some data in an odd-size piece of memory, when it's really a set of instructions at an (unusual) odd address instead of an even. So how do you disambiguate that? You can't just use an assembler; you have to disassemble the hand-coded 'data' with a debugger to see the real instructions. OK, resources are cheaper now, but this means either making dirty tricks illegal for any historic instruction set like brand X assembler or TeX, or coming up with a huge parser that can sail the seas of corner cases. The former threatens backward compatibility, thus meeting resistance in the TeX/LaTeX community and probably others. OpenDoc does have government support, so that's an edge. But then there's Microsoft that herds its users into the pastures of non-standards-compliance. Additionally, huge parsers are expensive to implement in several ways. And wasn't SGML supposed to be a generalized markup language? I do like the idea, but I think that balancing details over against abstractions (the Suenden that LaTeXers commit at times come to mind) is always going to be a sort of np-complete issue. Charles

Do you mean like Scrivener on the Mac? What, in any case, constitutes a universal layout approach? Does one exist? For example, I can do things with plain TeX that mighty InDesign must balk at. Yet some see TeX as yesteryear's solution because of subsequent tech advances. I hardly believe that DEK would be dogmatic about TeX being the only thing out there. Yet he, and thousands of others in the scientific communities where TeX flourishes, sees the value of maintaining a knowledge base that is predictable when it runs on a program that can pass the trip test. Lose that for the sake of innovation, and you can lose real knowledge. And what shall we say for troff, which still possesses an arcane sort of longevity? Imagine this: if you can use TeX running on some older PC and you have some remotely managed BSD setup with packet radio and EME bouncing or whatever, you can be creating documents for all the world to see even if you are out in the bush with a generator and mosquito netting. So TeX's stability has the interesting potential side effect of giving a voice to the voiceless. Our cast-off hardware becomes a window for freedom of speech and expression, as well as the free-beer philanthropy element of getting it into people's hands. If there is to be a universality to layout, part of that should also extend not just across current technologies but also have plugins that can support older technologies. That way we do not generate technological segregation. There are places where people still go outside to relieve themselves, and there are the Japanese washlets at the other extreme. But the human component remains, nonetheless. At minimum, what one needs is a cross-disciplinary approach. My work usually involves issues of finance and development, scheduling, good old editing, elements of design, and knowledge of the subject matter. All these factors directly or indirectly affect layout. Here's where I see the Mac as helpful. On the one hand, you have Aqua, while there's also X and good old terminal. Some folks think abstractly and can whack out macros like Paul Bunyan chops wood. Some think visually and need visual or modular dev tools. Some people are good at modeling situations that are dynamic and interactive, while others have the knack for getting to tried and true base issues that remain when all the noise and lights are gone. If you read Ian Barbour or Jacques Ellul, you see that identity and techne are linked and that the sciences do things differently than the humanities at a deeper level than just style manuals and the inverse relation of "obfuscated jargon" to "psycho-sociological rhetoric." I just don't see a unified typesetting engine in the works until something can easily embrace different national traditions for typesetting, type styles, design preferences, etc. In Germany, man nehmet Dr. Oetker, while in America it's doctor schmocktor, I just wanna feel good amidst an orgiastic consumer society. Think that doesn't get reflected in design choices? 'Cause it does. DEK may be a formidable computer scientist. Yet, as one of his cousins that is a friend of mine and another friend that was two years behind him in high school said, Knuth always loved things like words and music. His literary acumen reflects his tutelage in a school strongly influenced by the classical Gymnasium. He is a man of culture and taste, and he brought all his respect and research regarding longstanding, tried and true typographical traditions to his writing of TeX. Could there be new stuff? Sure. But an exploration of type, typography, layout, and design also points us to some of our basic thoughts on preferences, identity, habituation, etc. Charles On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 21:12 -0300, Maurí­cio wrote:

Sorry to insist, but I would be really interested in approaches that are not just great things we could add to TeX.

For instance: would it be possible to have some kind of “layout engine” to which text processing would be just one among other plug-ins? I wonder what kind of information that engine should share with plug-ins. Do you think such system is possible? Or something else?

Maurício

Maurício a écrit :

...

Hi,

Just because I'm curious: how could a typesetting system like TeX be if it was created today? I've tried google and wikipedia, and all I found different from TeX is a system called 'Lout', but it seems dead.

(...)

___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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Maurí­cio wrote:

used ‘ϕ’ in a math formula for one of his papers and Context

it showing up depends on what you use (mkii or mkiv), if the character is defined, if the font has it (in text mode) etc etc

could not open it, since it was a PDF revision 1.8 instead of 1.3

indeed a future version -) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Aditya Mahajan a écrit :

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Maurí­cio wrote:

...

used ‘ϕ’ in a math formula for one of his papers and Context

it showing up depends on what you use (mkii or mkiv), if the character is defined, if the font has it (in text mode) etc etc

For mkii you simply need to add \enableregime[utf8] in the beginning. It should work out of the box in mkiv (assuming you are using the default latin modern fonts).

Aditya

I always use \enableregime[utf]. I use mkii (actually, I use what Ubuntu provides). Is there any font setting I can make so that I can use Unicode everywhere? Maurício