A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices

Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي ح امد

1 Feb 2015 1 Feb '15

8:06 a.m.

Dear Syndicate, The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors: \type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}} Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples): https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0 Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached): ========== \starttext \setuppublications[alternative=apa] \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] \startpublication[k=corbin81, t=book, a=Corbin, y=1981, s=Corbin81] \author[]{Henry}[H.]{von }{Corbin} \title{The Concept of Comparative Philosophy} \pubname{Golgonooza Press} \city{Ipswich, United Kingdom} \pubyear{1981} \stoppublication \startpublication[k=haq, t=book, a=Haq, y=1994, s=Haq94] \author[]{Syed Nomanul}[S.]{al-}{Haq} \title{Names, Natures, and Things} \pubname{Kluwer} \city{Dordrecht} \pubyear{1994} \stoppublication \startpublication[k=ragep93, t=book, a={Ragep}, y=1993, s=FJRg93] \author[]{F.~J.}[F.~J.]{ibn al-}{Ragep} \title{Memoir on Astronomy} \pubname{Springer Verlag} \city{New York} \pubyear{1993} \stoppublication \placepublications [criterium=all] % inherits from \setuppublications % \completepublications[criterium=cite] % only works with criterium=all \stoptext ========== \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example). If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space: % \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces} % \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace} If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and Best wishes Idris -- Idris Samawi Hamid Professor of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523

Attachments:

test-bib-arabic.pdf (application/pdf — 14.1 KB)
test-bib-arabic.tex (application/x-tex — 1.1 KB)

Show replies by date

Keith J. Schultz

1 Feb 1 Feb

12:57 p.m.

New subject: A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices

Hi Idris, All, We have here the classical database problem of finding a format that fits all. But, as any body working with databases knows this will not work with a rigid format. Here we have 3 fields for the authors can can be misused. The von is the most problematic. It seems due to its cultural diversity. The use of the \setuppublicationlist[colsep=] helps in some ways that it gives the writers of text the flexibility of manually controlling the space after von field, but as Idris has pointed out this would involve a lot of work depending on the authors one has in ones database. This is especially, problematic for academics that reuse their bibliographies! Irdis second solution is a simple work around for where only a few changes are necessary. I am not an expert with this „von“ business, but in Idris case here „al-„ a simple change in the output of the vonsep could help globally without causing to many problems. That is make the output of the vonsep dependent on the last character of the von-field here „-„ The other possibility would be to use a discretionary switch for the output of the vonsep one definition could be vonsep= yes : output blank or global vonsep (default if vonsep field not in publication entry) no : do not output vonsep string : output character sequence command : use command to output vonsep Of course we could just have a default handler for the von field and allow it to be changed by writers! hope this helps the people smashing their brains on this subject/code! regards Keith.

...

Am 01.02.2015 um 16:06 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد :

Dear Syndicate,

The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:

\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}

Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0

Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached):

[snip, snip]

...

\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).

If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:

% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces} % \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}

If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and [snip, snip]

Alan BRASLAU

2 Feb 2 Feb

7:23 a.m.

The handling of the "vons" issue is cultural and language-dependent. The problem with mucking around with vonsep and other parameters is that one may very well have a mixture of references in a single document (this is often the case for me). I see no solution other than trying to identify some common use and to make the behavior depend on the language= field (or the document language, by default). Alan On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:57:23 +0100 "Keith J. Schultz" wrote:

...

Hi Idris, All,

We have here the classical database problem of finding a format that fits all. But, as any body working with databases knows this will not work with a rigid format.

Here we have 3 fields for the authors can can be misused. The von is the most problematic. It seems due to its cultural diversity.

The use of the \setuppublicationlist[colsep=] helps in some ways that it gives the writers of text the flexibility of manually controlling the space after von field, but as Idris has pointed out this would involve a lot of work depending on the authors one has in ones database. This is especially, problematic for academics that reuse their bibliographies!

Irdis second solution is a simple work around for where only a few changes are necessary.

I am not an expert with this „von“ business, but in Idris case here „al-„ a simple change in the output of the vonsep could help globally without causing to many problems. That is make the output of the vonsep dependent on the last character of the von-field here „-„

The other possibility would be to use a discretionary switch for the output of the vonsep one definition could be vonsep= yes : output blank or global vonsep (default if vonsep field not in publication entry) no : do not output vonsep string : output character sequence command : use command to output vonsep

Of course we could just have a default handler for the von field and allow it to be changed by writers!

hope this helps the people smashing their brains on this subject/code!

regards Keith.

...
Am 01.02.2015 um 16:06 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد :

Dear Syndicate,

The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:

\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}

Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0

Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached):

[snip, snip]

...
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).

If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:

% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces} % \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}

If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and [snip, snip]

Hans Hagen

11:02 a.m.

New subject: A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices

On 2/2/2015 3:23 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

...

The handling of the "vons" issue is cultural and language-dependent. The problem with mucking around with vonsep and other parameters is that one may very well have a mixture of references in a single document (this is often the case for me). I see no solution other than trying to identify some common use and to make the behavior depend on the language= field (or the document language, by default).

what is the rules for a language changed ; the problem is that it slso might affect sorting maybe some extra indicator (6th in comma separated) that specifies it author={von, Last, Jr, First, Initials,german-a-la-french} Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Hans Hagen

1 Feb 1 Feb

5:05 p.m.

New subject: A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices

On 2/1/2015 4:06 PM, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:

...

Dear Syndicate,

The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:

\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}

Looks mkii cq. th eold bin system ... no more time will be spent on that (by me).

...

Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples):

The new mechanism uses the same sorter as registers and sorted lists. So, specific wishes can be addressed there.

...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0

Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached):

I'm sure we can cook up something. Personally I'd like to get away from this 'von' and 'junior' thing and use better names, like initials (by default taken from firstnames) firstnames prefixes (unless specificed, taken from surnames) surnames postfixes (unless specified, taken from surnames) we can think of a sort keys as well, so maybe: author = {[sortkey] firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes} or author = {sortkey:: firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes} (we can have an exporter that exports to a regular dumb bib file for other usage)

...

========== \starttext \setuppublications[alternative=apa] \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=]

\startpublication[k=corbin81, t=book, a=Corbin, y=1981, s=Corbin81] \author[]{Henry}[H.]{von }{Corbin} \title{The Concept of Comparative Philosophy} \pubname{Golgonooza Press} \city{Ipswich, United Kingdom} \pubyear{1981} \stoppublication

\startpublication[k=haq, t=book, a=Haq, y=1994, s=Haq94] \author[]{Syed Nomanul}[S.]{al-}{Haq} \title{Names, Natures, and Things} \pubname{Kluwer} \city{Dordrecht} \pubyear{1994} \stoppublication

\startpublication[k=ragep93, t=book, a={Ragep}, y=1993, s=FJRg93] \author[]{F.~J.}[F.~J.]{ibn al-}{Ragep} \title{Memoir on Astronomy} \pubname{Springer Verlag} \city{New York} \pubyear{1993} \stoppublication

\placepublications [criterium=all] % inherits from \setuppublications % \completepublications[criterium=cite] % only works with criterium=all \stoptext ==========

\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).

If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:

% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces} % \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}

If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and

Best wishes Idris

Keith Schultz

2 Feb 2 Feb

2:29 a.m.

New subject: A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices

Hi Hans, All,

...

Am 02.02.2015 um 01:05 schrieb Hans Hagen :

[snip, snip]

...

I'm sure we can cook up something. Personally I'd like to get away from this 'von' and 'junior' thing and use better names, like

initials (by default taken from firstnames) firstnames prefixes (unless specificed, taken from surnames) surnames postfixes (unless specified, taken from surnames)

we can think of a sort keys as well, so maybe:

author = {[sortkey] firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}

or

author = {sortkey:: firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}

(we can have an exporter that exports to a regular dumb bib file for other usage)

I would think something more dynamic would be better! Something like a possible filter field for parsing the author information, so that writers can the set-up the sort field and von fields! If it is not designated for an entry the default filter is used. regards Keith.

3454

Age (days ago)

3455

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

5 comments

5 participants

participants (5)

Alan BRASLAU
Hans Hagen
Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي ح امد
Keith J. Schultz
Keith Schultz