Hi, I wanted to wikify the command »\nocap« and tried it out. But it does seen to have any effect, see the example from the manual: \starttext \cap {People that have gathered their \cap {capital} at the cost of other people are not seldom \nocap {decapitated} in revolutionary times.} \stoptext The word »decapitated« ist also capitalized. MTXrun | current version: 2010.04.07 This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.60.0-2010040422 Marco
Am 12.04.10 15:47, schrieb Marco:
Hi,
I wanted to wikify the command »\nocap« and tried it out. But it does seen to have any effect, see the example from the manual:
\starttext \cap {People that have gathered their \cap {capital} at the cost of other people are not seldom \nocap {decapitated} in revolutionary times.} \stoptext
The word »decapitated« ist also capitalized.
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. \definefontfeature[caps] [smcp=yes,c2sc=yes] \definefontfeature[nocaps][smcp=no,c2sc=no] \setupbodyfont[termes] \starttext {\addff{caps} People that have gathered their {\tx capital} at the cost of other people are not seldom {\addff{nocaps} decapitated} in revolutionary times.} \stoptext The result is different from \cap because everything is set as smallcapitals so here is the MkIV defintion for \nocap. \unexpanded\def\notsmallcapped{\groupedcommand{\setcharactercasing[\plustwo]\char\zerocount}{}} \starttext \cap {People that have gathered their \cap {capital} at the cost of other people are not seldom \nocap {decapitated} in revolutionary times.} \stoptext Wolfgang
On 12-4-2010 7:26, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
Am 12.04.10 15:47, schrieb Marco:
\unexpanded\def\notsmallcapped{\groupedcommand{\setcharactercasing[\plustwo]\char\zerocount}{}}
added ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
I'm against wikifying MKII stuff. Maybe I'll add a MKII-only note. When I'm not completely mistaken I think its use should fade away in the near future. So creating documentation for MKII is a waste of time. Why are non-working commands like this not removed in MKIV? An undefined control sequence is easier debuggable than weird behaviour in my opinion. marco
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:23:02PM +0200, Marco wrote:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font. I would liked to send "patches" to LM fonts project, but they don't have a source repository and their work flow depends on proprietary software that I cannot afford. -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On 12-4-2010 9:43, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:23:02PM +0200, Marco wrote:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font.
this is because they are cm compatible (the initial objective of the project was a merge of all those variants) in the future we might have extra lm fonts that have those features but the team is still not sure if this should be done ... it makes much sense for consistency to have smallcaps merged in the normal shapes but even then there would be a separate smallcaps font as well
I would liked to send "patches" to LM fonts project, but they don't have a source repository and their work flow depends on proprietary software that I cannot afford.
concerning the workflow you're wrong ... they use public tools like metatype1 which is free ... and they're currently building a tool chain for the math fonts concerning the repos you're right ... given earlier experiences with lack of quality assurance in public fonts the lm/gyre project follows strickt procedures and only the core team can patch ... of course you can send suggestions and patches but the core team decides fyi: the gyre team (gust font foundation) has now reverted to the core urw fonts for which they got the copyright and it made it possible to get rid of some ugly artefacts and glyphs (again, lack of qa had rendered the latest public urw fonts somewhat useless) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 11:41:59PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 12-4-2010 9:43, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:23:02PM +0200, Marco wrote:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font.
this is because they are cm compatible (the initial objective of the project was a merge of all those variants)
in the future we might have extra lm fonts that have those features but the team is still not sure if this should be done ... it makes much sense for consistency to have smallcaps merged in the normal shapes but even then there would be a separate smallcaps font as well
A separate small caps font made sense for Type1 fonts (where CM compatibility would matter), but for OpenType fonts I fail to see the reasoning for this.
I would liked to send "patches" to LM fonts project, but they don't have a source repository and their work flow depends on proprietary software that I cannot afford.
concerning the workflow you're wrong ... they use public tools like metatype1 which is free ... and they're currently building a tool chain for the math fonts
I was referring to OpenType programming where they use Adobe AFDKO which is a proprietary software that run only on proprietary OS, and with lack of sources I can't even provide patches against the feature files, I can make modified fonts but I don't think they will accept it. Even MetaType1, it is written with only Windows users in mind; I can't use the supplied batch files and I can't understand them (with no documentation at all) to write a replacement.
concerning the repos you're right ... given earlier experiences with lack of quality assurance in public fonts the lm/gyre project follows strickt procedures and only the core team can patch ... of course you can send suggestions and patches but the core team decides
Closed development is not the solution for lack of proper QA, proper QA is the solution; you can have open development model with public repos, bug tracker, roadmaps etc. and still maintain a strict QA process, there are many free software projects with very high QA standards but still running an open development model. With open development you encourage potential contributors who may or my not very valuable to you project.
fyi: the gyre team (gust font foundation) has now reverted to the core urw fonts for which they got the copyright and it made it possible to get rid of some ugly artefacts and glyphs (again, lack of qa had rendered the latest public urw fonts somewhat useless)
There is still a long way to go, the Greek glyph for example are ranging from suboptimal to pure crap. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On 13-4-2010 12:58, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 11:41:59PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 12-4-2010 9:43, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:23:02PM +0200, Marco wrote:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font.
this is because they are cm compatible (the initial objective of the project was a merge of all those variants)
in the future we might have extra lm fonts that have those features but the team is still not sure if this should be done ... it makes much sense for consistency to have smallcaps merged in the normal shapes but even then there would be a separate smallcaps font as well
A separate small caps font made sense for Type1 fonts (where CM compatibility would matter), but for OpenType fonts I fail to see the reasoning for this.
this is not the place to elaborate on this (more for the usual font bof session at bachotek) but to some extend it's a packaging issue: why a full smallcaps embedded but not an italic; a similar discussion is taking place with regards to the lm math fonts: either or not to embed the three sizes as in practice one might want to combine different design sizes anyway
I would liked to send "patches" to LM fonts project, but they don't have a source repository and their work flow depends on proprietary software that I cannot afford.
concerning the workflow you're wrong ... they use public tools like metatype1 which is free ... and they're currently building a tool chain for the math fonts
I was referring to OpenType programming where they use Adobe AFDKO which is a proprietary software that run only on proprietary OS, and with lack of sources I can't even provide patches against the feature files, I can make modified fonts but I don't think they will accept it. Even MetaType1, it is written with only Windows users in mind; I can't use the supplied batch files and I can't understand them (with no documentation at all) to write a replacement.
the team is considering to use fontforge in script mode but then the oppososite is happening as fontforge does not run that well on windows (needs mingw or cygwin + some x server) which is not much different from running AFDKO in wine or so and just like metatype1's toolkit is written with windows (actually dos) in mind (the toolkit evolved over many years an at that time there was no easy to use linux around anyway) many other tools in the tex suite of programs have a strong bias towards unix so it's a all matter of history and as the gust foundation team is the official team for tex related font development they have been given complete freedom in choosing their tools
concerning the repos you're right ... given earlier experiences with lack of quality assurance in public fonts the lm/gyre project follows strickt procedures and only the core team can patch ... of course you can send suggestions and patches but the core team decides
Closed development is not the solution for lack of proper QA, proper QA is the solution; you can have open development model with public repos, bug tracker, roadmaps etc. and still maintain a strict QA process, there are many free software projects with very high QA standards but still running an open development model. With open development you encourage potential contributors who may or my not very valuable to you project.
sure, but there has been many discussions about this (mostly at bachotex i admit) and other font experts present (in addition to the team) there also have their worries about sensitive things like patching fonts ... of course a patch for a otf generator is not the same as a patch for a shape and it's the shapes that i was talking of .. it's already somewhat debatable to add shapes to artistic work
fyi: the gyre team (gust font foundation) has now reverted to the core urw fonts for which they got the copyright and it made it possible to get rid of some ugly artefacts and glyphs (again, lack of qa had rendered the latest public urw fonts somewhat useless)
There is still a long way to go, the Greek glyph for example are ranging from suboptimal to pure crap.
indeed, greek and cyrillic are the shapes that will be kicked out and redone as they're bugged and crappy (something that happens when anyone can add to a font and the main reason why the team wanted to get the copyright on the originals so that they can kick out bad stuff cq. start from scratch) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
this is not the place to elaborate on this (more for the usual font bof session at bachotek) but to some extend it's a packaging issue: why a full smallcaps embedded but not an italic
Actually, you can do that with OpenType: there is an 'ital' feature, and using it would allow to embed italic correction information within the fonts. You can't do that with fonts of different design sizes, alas. Arthur
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:48:27PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
this is not the place to elaborate on this (more for the usual font bof session at bachotek) but to some extend it's a packaging issue: why a full smallcaps embedded but not an italic
Actually, you can do that with OpenType: there is an 'ital' feature, and using it would allow to embed italic correction information within the fonts. You can't do that with fonts of different design sizes, alas.
It is usually used by CJK fonts since italic is only for LGC part of the font. Combining fonts with different design sizes is not usually good idea since they have different metrics and hinting zones etc. making the merge pointless. You can use TTC to collect several fonts in one file, though. Regards Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On 13-4-2010 12:48, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
this is not the place to elaborate on this (more for the usual font bof session at bachotek) but to some extend it's a packaging issue: why a full smallcaps embedded but not an italic
Actually, you can do that with OpenType: there is an 'ital' feature, and using it would allow to embed italic correction information within the fonts. You can't do that with fonts of different design sizes, alas.
italic correction or italic alternates? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
italic correction or italic alternates?
Italic alternates. http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_fj.htm#ital Arthur
On 13-4-2010 1:54, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
italic correction or italic alternates?
Italic alternates.
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_fj.htm#ital
interesting is that combining them in one font can help kerning although kerning in cjk is not much of an issue of course there's the marketing issue: putting too much in one file gives less to sell Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:13:49PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 13-4-2010 12:58, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 11:41:59PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 12-4-2010 9:43, Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:23:02PM +0200, Marco wrote:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features. Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font.
this is because they are cm compatible (the initial objective of the project was a merge of all those variants)
in the future we might have extra lm fonts that have those features but the team is still not sure if this should be done ... it makes much sense for consistency to have smallcaps merged in the normal shapes but even then there would be a separate smallcaps font as well
A separate small caps font made sense for Type1 fonts (where CM compatibility would matter), but for OpenType fonts I fail to see the reasoning for this.
this is not the place to elaborate on this (more for the usual font bof session at bachotek)
I don't go to TeX conferences, so mailing lists is the only place I can discuss such stuff, and TeX Gyre fonts don't have a mailing list, AFAIK.
but to some extend it's a packaging issue: why a full smallcaps embedded but not an italic; a similar discussion is taking place with regards to the lm math fonts: either or not to embed the three sizes as in practice one might want to combine different design sizes anyway
Small caps are not usually treated as separate font faces in OpenType applications, and the common practice is to embed it into the font, which is not the case with Italic (also one can argue that Italic and Roman are not mere styles, but faces of each own, unlike small caps).
I would liked to send "patches" to LM fonts project, but they don't have a source repository and their work flow depends on proprietary software that I cannot afford.
concerning the workflow you're wrong ... they use public tools like metatype1 which is free ... and they're currently building a tool chain for the math fonts
I was referring to OpenType programming where they use Adobe AFDKO which is a proprietary software that run only on proprietary OS, and with lack of sources I can't even provide patches against the feature files, I can make modified fonts but I don't think they will accept it. Even MetaType1, it is written with only Windows users in mind; I can't use the supplied batch files and I can't understand them (with no documentation at all) to write a replacement.
the team is considering to use fontforge in script mode but then the oppososite is happening as fontforge does not run that well on windows (needs mingw or cygwin + some x server) which is not much different from running AFDKO in wine or so
Fontforge in script mode does not require X, mingw is enough, and AFAIK latest FF CVS can be compiled under mingw without patching. One can always run FF under some virtual machine etc. But to run Windows I need a Windows license which I cannot afford.
and just like metatype1's toolkit is written with windows (actually dos) in mind (the toolkit evolved over many years an at that time there was no easy to use linux around anyway) many other tools in the tex suite of programs have a strong bias towards unix so it's a all matter of history and as the gust foundation team is the official team for tex related font development they have been given complete freedom in choosing their tools
They have the very right to pick the tools they won't, but this is alienating many potential contributors, an that what I was complaining about.
concerning the repos you're right ... given earlier experiences with lack of quality assurance in public fonts the lm/gyre project follows strickt procedures and only the core team can patch ... of course you can send suggestions and patches but the core team decides
Closed development is not the solution for lack of proper QA, proper QA is the solution; you can have open development model with public repos, bug tracker, roadmaps etc. and still maintain a strict QA process, there are many free software projects with very high QA standards but still running an open development model. With open development you encourage potential contributors who may or my not very valuable to you project.
sure, but there has been many discussions about this (mostly at bachotex i admit) and other font experts present (in addition to the team) there also have their worries about sensitive things like patching fonts ... of course a patch for a otf generator is not the same as a patch for a shape and it's the shapes that i was talking of .. it's already somewhat debatable to add shapes to artistic work
They already shipped glyphs with such poor artistic value, being in the Ghostscript fonts is not an excuse, they could have resorted to the original URW fonts, which were released under GPL, from the start if quality is so high priority to them. So, I don't see how welcoming potential contributers can be any worse, it might actually improve the miserable state of some areas of the fonts.
fyi: the gyre team (gust font foundation) has now reverted to the core urw fonts for which they got the copyright and it made it possible to get rid of some ugly artefacts and glyphs (again, lack of qa had rendered the latest public urw fonts somewhat useless)
There is still a long way to go, the Greek glyph for example are ranging from suboptimal to pure crap.
indeed, greek and cyrillic are the shapes that will be kicked out and redone as they're bugged and crappy (something that happens when anyone can add to a font and the main reason why the team wanted to get the copyright on the originals so that they can kick out bad stuff cq. start from scratch)
As I said above, nothing prevented them from kicking bad glyphs out, the fonts, including original URW++ fonts, were all under GPL (which TeX Gyre violated for a while). Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 01:06:47PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
I don't go to TeX conferences, so mailing lists is the only place I can discuss such stuff, and TeX Gyre fonts don't have a mailing list, AFAIK.
You can write to the TeX Gyre team...
And their contact info is listed in... ? Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 01:06:47PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
I don't go to TeX conferences, so mailing lists is the only place I can discuss such stuff, and TeX Gyre fonts don't have a mailing list, AFAIK. You can write to the TeX Gyre team...
And their contact info is listed in... ?
From README: Email contact: Bogus\l{}aw Jackowski aka Jacko, B_Jackowski@gust.org.pl
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:37:04PM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 01:06:47PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
I don't go to TeX conferences, so mailing lists is the only place I can discuss such stuff, and TeX Gyre fonts don't have a mailing list, AFAIK. You can write to the TeX Gyre team...
And their contact info is listed in... ?
From README:
Email contact: Bogus\l{}aw Jackowski aka Jacko, B_Jackowski@gust.org.pl
I overlooked this, for some reason the website looked like a natural place to look for such info. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:51:48PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
And their contact info is listed in... ?
The TeX Gyre page starts with a list of names. And the first paper in the "Readings" section lists e-mail addresses. Have you tried contacting them?
Apparently not, again for some reason I'd always the feeling that they are not interested in feedback (I also usually try to provide fixes with my "bug" reports, but I can't really do here). Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
Apparently not, again for some reason I'd always the feeling that they are not interested in feedback
I wonder how you got that feeling if you never made contact with them...
(I also usually try to provide fixes with my "bug" reports, but I can't really do here).
Because you can't use the AFDKO? You can still make suggestions if you have some. For that matter, I've never used the AFDKO either, and that didn't prevent me to from discussing issues with Jacko. Arthur
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 09:17:41PM +0200, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
Apparently not, again for some reason I'd always the feeling that they are not interested in feedback
I wonder how you got that feeling if you never made contact with them...
I'm still wondering too.
(I also usually try to provide fixes with my "bug" reports, but I can't really do here).
Because you can't use the AFDKO? You can still make suggestions if you have some. For that matter, I've never used the AFDKO either, and that didn't prevent me to from discussing issues with Jacko.
I'm used to open source projects where sending patches with your bug reports is more appreciated, and I always feel it is a bit rude to do otherwise (specially in an area like fonts where I should be able to fix bugs myself). Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On 13-4-2010 8:07, Khaled Hosny wrote:
Apparently not, again for some reason I'd always the feeling that they are not interested in feedback (I also usually try to provide fixes with my "bug" reports, but I can't really do here).
If you'd met them in person you'd probably written your mails differently. They are quite open, very active in the tex community, spending a lot of time on tex things and deserve a bit more respect. (Actually this is one of the things I dislike about mailing, bloging, etc. .. criticizing people without knowing who one's dealing with and what one's intentions are.) The project started already quite some years ago and i dare to say the lm and gyre project the community would be in troubles. Also, these projects are among the few (user group sponsored projects) that actually had quite some outcome. We have had those type one fonts in different encodings for ages and in was a pain to support them consistently esp when mixing languages. This project could only succees because it was done by a few people the way it was done. I kno wthe community well enough by now to also know that a larger group would have failed (endless discussions for instance) and even this way it already had to cross some political tex font boundaries. In the tex community the most succesful projects are those done by small groups consisting of people who stay around long. The fonts that were used as starting point were part of tex live for many years and for some it's even unknown where the additional glyphs came from. Replacing the old fonts with new ones (type 1 and later otf) is done under tight control as it may not harm distributions and current workflows. Most of this info can be found in publications (and presentations) on the project. Ok, if one's not a member of a user group, one will not notice but that not the teams fault. The stages are quite clear: initial merge, cleanup (which can lead to removal), math, improve. We're currently between the second and third stage. Those sponsoring the project are quite convinced that the team can and will deliver given time. Criticism is ok, as is passing info and patches to the team, but one has to see things in (tex) perspective. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 04:21:27PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 13-4-2010 8:07, Khaled Hosny wrote:
Apparently not, again for some reason I'd always the feeling that they are not interested in feedback (I also usually try to provide fixes with my "bug" reports, but I can't really do here).
If you'd met them in person you'd probably written your mails differently. They are quite open, very active in the tex community, spending a lot of time on tex things and deserve a bit more respect.
I'm pretty sure I'd, also I never meant any disrespect, I may look a bit rude, but, as free software zealot, I owe great respect to any free software project, whether or not I completely agree with it.
(Actually this is one of the things I dislike about mailing, bloging, etc. .. criticizing people without knowing who one's dealing with and what one's intentions are.)
True.
Most of this info can be found in publications (and presentations) on the project. Ok, if one's not a member of a user group, one will not notice but that not the teams fault.
That one of the things I really hate about TeX development (OK, OK, I'm not starting again), but for several personal reasons I can't join any of the international TeX user groups (and we don't have one here) and I can't also go to TeX conferences, so I always feel outside the loop (for example, there was that time I needed badly some article about OpenType math published in TUGBoat, but I've to wait for a year to read it, and by then I don't think I'll be still in need of it). Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
but for several personal reasons I can't join any of the international TeX user groups
I don't know what your reasons are, but you realize that you can't blame the user groups for your not wanting to join, right? TUG sends its publication worldwide at its own expenses, and living in Egypt you'd qualify for the membership discount for "countries with modest economies" (their wording). You really can't blame TUG for your own choices.
for example, there was that time I needed badly some article about OpenType math published in TUGBoat, but I've to wait for a year to read it
One year is nothing. It may be too late for your particular project, but opening the archives after one year is really early. By the way, I suppose you know TUG'11 will take place in Cairo, so you should really come if you have the opportunity :-) Arthur
On 13-4-2010 1:03, Khaled Hosny wrote:
Fontforge in script mode does not require X, mingw is enough, and AFAIK latest FF CVS can be compiled under mingw without patching. One can always run FF under some virtual machine etc. But to run Windows I need a Windows license which I cannot afford.
there are some issues when using it as library also, you don't need a windows licence to run a program under wine (but i can be wrong)
They have the very right to pick the tools they won't, but this is alienating many potential contributors, an that what I was complaining about.
well, it's their project and given their full agenda i can imagine that dealing with many contributers (managing) is not that high on their agenda; the couple of discussions there were when the fonts were developed (should this accent be a few nanometers more this or that way) already took quite some time and energy as said: patches or suggestions with respect to ordening of the glyphs cq features are less problematic (and welcome) than endless discussions about shapes (and coming up with arguments why to reject them)
They already shipped glyphs with such poor artistic value, being in the Ghostscript fonts is not an excuse, they could have resorted to the original URW fonts, which were released under GPL, from the start if quality is so high priority to them. So, I don't see how welcoming potential contributers can be any worse, it might actually improve the miserable state of some areas of the fonts.
the miserable shaped would have been improved if there had been any interest in it but a fact is that neither greek nor cyrillic users ever gave any feedback (about right shapes to start with) and as such they became a burden. Of course greek has to be brought in (maybe from px/tx) again when math is done. of course, if someone would provide the perfect cyrillic / greek shapes that would be great but even then adding them officially should go through the team and be part of the normal assembling process so, feel free to come up with or improve shapes (i suppose that the team wants them in metatype 1 format) ... the gust foundry people are quite open and show up at tex meetings on a regular basis (also to give detailed progress reports) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 02:00:39PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 13-4-2010 1:03, Khaled Hosny wrote:
They already shipped glyphs with such poor artistic value, being in the Ghostscript fonts is not an excuse, they could have resorted to the original URW fonts, which were released under GPL, from the start if quality is so high priority to them. So, I don't see how welcoming potential contributers can be any worse, it might actually improve the miserable state of some areas of the fonts.
the miserable shaped would have been improved if there had been any interest in it but a fact is that neither greek nor cyrillic users ever gave any feedback (about right shapes to start with) and as such they became a burden. Of course greek has to be brought in (maybe from px/tx) again when math is done.
And how do you expect to get any feedback if you are alienating your users from the start? I've looked again in the TeX Gyre project page and I can't find anything even remotely related to feedback or contact us address, not to talk about a mailing list or bug tracker. By adopting a closed development model, you are telling every outsider: "your opinion is worth nothing, we are not interested in it", so don't wonder you didn't receive any. BTW, I just checked ghostscript fonts shipped with my distro and they don't have any of the crappy Greek glyphs TeX Gyre have (neither do the files linked from TeX Gyre web page), so I don't know from where TeX Gyre got those. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
BTW, I just checked ghostscript fonts shipped with my distro and they don't have any of the crappy Greek glyphs TeX Gyre have (neither do the files linked from TeX Gyre web page), so I don't know from where TeX Gyre got those.
I contacted the Gyre team a while ago about the Greek, and they said they were not really meant to be used, but just placeholders until the "real" Greek will be developed. I offered help, but I don't know how to use metatype, I could just help them set up the Greek Extended glyphs once the proper characters are in place. And btw: please tone down your messages a bit. You sound like you are foaming from the mouth, and that's quite unnecessary. As Hans said: all of this is open source, if you hate their style of doing things that much, just develop your own fonts. If people are developing free software, they also have the freedom to do the development exactly as they see fit. Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Thomas
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:33:22PM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
BTW, I just checked ghostscript fonts shipped with my distro and they don't have any of the crappy Greek glyphs TeX Gyre have (neither do the files linked from TeX Gyre web page), so I don't know from where TeX Gyre got those.
I contacted the Gyre team a while ago about the Greek, and they said they were not really meant to be used, but just placeholders until the "real" Greek will be developed. I offered help, but I don't know how to use metatype, I could just help them set up the Greek Extended glyphs once the proper characters are in place.
And btw: please tone down your messages a bit. You sound like you are foaming from the mouth, and that's quite unnecessary. As Hans said: all of this is open source, if you hate their style of doing things that much, just develop your own fonts. If people are developing free software, they also have the freedom to do the development exactly as they see fit. Where does this sense of entitlement come from?
Just because it is free software doesn't mean one can't criticize them, actually because it is free software I do care about it. I didn't know my tone was that high (well it is usually that high but I don't even notice). Sure I can go and fork it, but it is pity that one have to resort to this to just contribute a bug fix. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer
They don't have a small caps OpenType feature (smcp) for a reason beyond to me, they however have an old-fashioned separate small caps font.
this is because they are cm compatible (the initial objective of the project was a merge of all those variants) Thanks for the explanation.
I think merging would be the best option. That way we have a modern typeface. Maybe we can carry around the seperate small caps for compatibility. That doesn't seem to harm. marco
Am 12.04.10 21:23, schrieb Marco:
With MkIV \cap and \nocap is no longer necessary when you have a opentype font with the smcp (smallcapitals) and c2sc (capitals to smallcapitals) features.
Thanks for your explanation. But why doesn't your example work with the latin modern fonts? Don't they have these features? I'd be surprised when they don't have small caps.
I'm against wikifying MKII stuff. Maybe I'll add a MKII-only note. When I'm not completely mistaken I think its use should fade away in the near future. So creating documentation for MKII is a waste of time.
Why are non-working commands like this not removed in MKIV? An undefined control sequence is easier debuggable than weird behaviour in my opinion.
\cap and \nocap are still usefull in MkIV because not each font has smallcaps features and there are cases where you prefer fakecaps over smallcaps. Hans rewrote also the macros for \cap which use now the same mechanism as \word and \WORD in MkIV and this exampke produce the same result. \starttext \WORD{\tx text text text \WORD{\tx text} text \word{text} text} \stoptext Wolfgang
participants (7)
-
Arthur Reutenauer -
Hans Hagen -
Khaled Hosny -
Marco -
Taco Hoekwater -
Thomas A. Schmitz -
Wolfgang Schuster