On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 11:07 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

Bug in AR.

=(

Convince Adobe to fix it or find a way to render that page without prerequisites for the bug to show up.

That's probably not going to happen any time soon, I would think.

I'm not sure about your particular case, but I have seen the problem multiple times, most often when combined with transparency on the same page.

Damn. I sent a bug report to Adobe, but I doubt they'll do anything. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com

On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 18:00 +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

keep in mind that acrobat has monitor profiles, simulates paper and has different rendering code when transparencies are used

I've crawled all over Adobe's proprietary Reader's settings and I can't find anything for adjusting monitor profiles. This is very disappointing because many of the readers of my book will probably be using that shitty renderer. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 08:54 +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

(AR might have flaws but so do all other viewers I've seen.)

I don't doubt it, but something that salient is pretty bad though. The whole document looks just awful.

Is there a small example file?

Sure. https://www.avaneya.com/temp/Viking_Lander_Remastered.pdf -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com

On 17-4-2012 11:53, Peter Rolf wrote:

Am 17.04.2012 08:57, schrieb Kip Warner:

...

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 08:54 +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

(AR might have flaws but so do all other viewers I've seen.)

I don't doubt it, but something that salient is pretty bad though. The whole document looks just awful.

...

Is there a small example file?

Sure.https://www.avaneya.com/temp/Viking_Lander_Remastered.pdf

I might be wrong, but is this color shift not just a 'page group' problem, caused by the transparent PNG?

I think so. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 12:48 +0200, Peter Rolf wrote:

Hi Kip,

give it a try and add this to you document...

\startluacode

backends = backends or { } backends.codeinjections = backends.codeinjections or { }

function backends.codeinjections.rgbtransparencygroup() local d = lpdf.dictionary { S = lpdf.constant("Transparency"), CS = lpdf.constant("DeviceRGB"), I = true } lpdf.registerpagefinalizer(function() lpdf.addtopageattributes("Group",d) end) end

backends.codeinjections.rgbtransparencygroup()

\stopluacode

This does not work, if you also use CMYK based graphics/pictures in your document (as this is done document wide).

You know Peter, I must admit. ConTeXt has made me rather cynical at times. I don't know how many times I've tried a snippet of this or that, only to have it do exactly what I hadn't intended. Having said that, every now and then I am blown away when something I never expected to actually get working, gets working. Thank you so much, that worked beautifully. Both Evince (poppler based) and AR look identical now. I stuck it in my environment file. I wonder if there is a safer way of doing this than via "inline asm", so to speak. Also, maybe for my benefit, and anybody else having the same problem, you might be able to explain what was happening? -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Martin Schröder wrote:

2012/4/18 Kip Warner :

...

I stuck it in my environment file. I wonder if there is a safer way of doing this than via "inline asm", so to speak. Also, maybe for my benefit, and anybody else having the same problem, you might be able to explain what was happening?

Adobe Reader needs a special object in the page for it to handle included pdfs or pngs with transparency correctly on the first page (search for pdftex and "page groups".) AdobeReader or the specification(s) ?

-- luigi

On 18-4-2012 12:58, Martin Schröder wrote:

2012/4/18 luigi scarso:

...

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Martin Schröder wrote:

...

Adobe Reader needs a special object in the page for it to handle included pdfs or pngs with transparency correctly on the first page (search for pdftex and "page groups".) AdobeReader or the specification(s) ?

It's known that Adobe needs it. It's not really in the specs as per ISO3200:2008. Maybe the next version will be clearer there.

My impression with such features is that they relate to pdf as container format for e.g. illustrator where such info about grouping is important, but I might be wrong. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 18-4-2012 02:49, Kip Warner wrote:

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 12:48 +0200, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

Hi Kip,

give it a try and add this to you document...

\startluacode

backends = backends or { } backends.codeinjections = backends.codeinjections or { }

function backends.codeinjections.rgbtransparencygroup() local d = lpdf.dictionary { S = lpdf.constant("Transparency"), CS = lpdf.constant("DeviceRGB"), I = true } lpdf.registerpagefinalizer(function() lpdf.addtopageattributes("Group",d) end) end

backends.codeinjections.rgbtransparencygroup()

\stopluacode

This does not work, if you also use CMYK based graphics/pictures in your document (as this is done document wide).

You know Peter, I must admit. ConTeXt has made me rather cynical at times. I don't know how many times I've tried a snippet of this or that, only to have it do exactly what I hadn't intended. Having said that, every now and then I am blown away when something I never expected to actually get working, gets working. Thank you so much, that worked beautifully. Both Evince (poppler based) and AR look identical now.

I stuck it in my environment file. I wonder if there is a safer way of doing this than via "inline asm", so to speak. Also, maybe for my benefit, and anybody else having the same problem, you might be able to explain what was happening?

At some point it can become an option (or semi automatic) but the problem is that we don't know in advance if we operate in rgb or cmyk. I can imagine that when we have enabled cmyk and disabled rgb or reverse, it can be added automatically but even then users must make sure that all images are in the right colorspace as well. And what with spotcolors? Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 18-4-2012 13:12, Peter Rolf wrote:

I understand that there is no easy or general solution for this. But on the other hand is PNG currently the only way to use transparent bitmaps in TeX. The usage of transparent PNG is quite common, so this is a general problem that should be solved.

I like your idea of automatically adding such groups, if the user declares the color space beforehand. Also no answer for the spot color problem, but as long as the user does not limit the used color spaces, things can stay as they are. Just my 2 cents.

so first wen need to test with mixed color space documents and such hacks to see what happens (as we don't want invalid documents) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On 20-4-2012 09:50, Peter Rolf wrote:

Am 19.04.2012 20:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

On 18-4-2012 13:12, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

I understand that there is no easy or general solution for this. But on the other hand is PNG currently the only way to use transparent bitmaps in TeX. The usage of transparent PNG is quite common, so this is a general problem that should be solved.

I like your idea of automatically adding such groups, if the user declares the color space beforehand. Also no answer for the spot color problem, but as long as the user does not limit the used color spaces, things can stay as they are. Just my 2 cents.

so first wen need to test with mixed color space documents and such hacks to see what happens (as we don't want invalid documents)

ok. i don't expect any formal problems, only more or less ugly color shifts. anyhow, we will see.

needs some thinking about proper examples (colored text, vector and pixel based graphics in RGB,CMYK,Spot)... i think 'draw ColorCircle(..)' is a perfect candidate for the complete graphic part. one page with transparency and also one page without any transparency (the page group shouldn't kick in). later on we can add some icc profiles to spice things up.

i'll start to make a test document on the weekend then. if i have missed something important, let me know. any additional ideas are also welcome :-)

as a prelude, the next beta will have \setupcolors[pagecolormodel=rgb] % gray rgb cmyk auto none and issue a warning when no model is set when using transparencies Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Am 24.04.2012 15:37, schrieb Peter Rolf:

Am 24.04.2012 14:42, schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

On 20-4-2012 09:50, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

Am 19.04.2012 20:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

On 18-4-2012 13:12, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

I understand that there is no easy or general solution for this. But on the other hand is PNG currently the only way to use transparent bitmaps in TeX. The usage of transparent PNG is quite common, so this is a general problem that should be solved.

I like your idea of automatically adding such groups, if the user declares the color space beforehand. Also no answer for the spot color problem, but as long as the user does not limit the used color spaces, things can stay as they are. Just my 2 cents.

so first wen need to test with mixed color space documents and such hacks to see what happens (as we don't want invalid documents)

ok. i don't expect any formal problems, only more or less ugly color shifts. anyhow, we will see.

needs some thinking about proper examples (colored text, vector and pixel based graphics in RGB,CMYK,Spot)... i think 'draw ColorCircle(..)' is a perfect candidate for the complete graphic part. one page with transparency and also one page without any transparency (the page group shouldn't kick in). later on we can add some icc profiles to spice things up.

i'll start to make a test document on the weekend then. if i have missed something important, let me know. any additional ideas are also welcome :-)

as a prelude, the next beta will have

\setupcolors[pagecolormodel=rgb] % gray rgb cmyk auto none

and issue a warning when no model is set when using transparencies

nice. a test document with mixed color spaces is also in work and should be ready in a few days.

a first version of the test files can be found here (7z, LZMA2 compression) https://www.wuala.com/indiego/public/?key=caiCGLasLFmJ i have tested four versions so far. 1. cmyk (default) page group 2. rgb page group 3. cmyk page group + pdf/x 4. rgb page group + pdf/x no general problems so far (only spot color related) Peter

Am 24.04.2012 14:42, schrieb Hans Hagen:

On 20-4-2012 09:50, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

Am 19.04.2012 20:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:

...

On 18-4-2012 13:12, Peter Rolf wrote:

...

I understand that there is no easy or general solution for this. But on the other hand is PNG currently the only way to use transparent bitmaps in TeX. The usage of transparent PNG is quite common, so this is a general problem that should be solved.

I like your idea of automatically adding such groups, if the user declares the color space beforehand. Also no answer for the spot color problem, but as long as the user does not limit the used color spaces, things can stay as they are. Just my 2 cents.

so first wen need to test with mixed color space documents and such hacks to see what happens (as we don't want invalid documents)

ok. i don't expect any formal problems, only more or less ugly color shifts. anyhow, we will see.

needs some thinking about proper examples (colored text, vector and pixel based graphics in RGB,CMYK,Spot)... i think 'draw ColorCircle(..)' is a perfect candidate for the complete graphic part. one page with transparency and also one page without any transparency (the page group shouldn't kick in). later on we can add some icc profiles to spice things up.

i'll start to make a test document on the weekend then. if i have missed something important, let me know. any additional ideas are also welcome :-)

as a prelude, the next beta will have

\setupcolors[pagecolormodel=rgb] % gray rgb cmyk auto none

and issue a warning when no model is set when using transparencies

tested with latest beta (26.04.2012) and no problems so far. an adapted version of the test files can be found at https://www.wuala.com/indiego/public/?key=caiCGLasLFmJ Peter

On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 09:38 +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

At some point it can become an option (or semi automatic) but the problem is that we don't know in advance if we operate in rgb or cmyk. I can imagine that when we have enabled cmyk and disabled rgb or reverse, it can be added automatically but even then users must make sure that all images are in the right colorspace as well. And what with spotcolors?

Thanks Hans. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 08:54:03 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

(AR might have flaws but so do all other viewers I've seen.)

With one MAJOR difference: for Acrobat reader, one is dependent on the whims and desires of Adobe (and its paying market); the other pdf viewers are open source. Alan

On 17-4-2012 09:31, luigi scarso wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

...

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 08:54:03 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote:

...

(AR might have flaws but so do all other viewers I've seen.)

With one MAJOR difference: for Acrobat reader, one is dependent on the whims and desires of Adobe (and its paying market); the other pdf viewers are open source. AdobeReader *is* the reference pdf-viewer. Every pdf for general use should be checked at least with the latest AdobeReader under windows, which is currently one of the best pdf viewer. For the (pdf/lua)TeX community, all the viewer based on xpdf/poppler are also important, because (pdf/lua)TeX have a consistent part of code from them, so a bug in xpdf/poppler can be also a bug in (pdf/lua)Tex. Other viewers are useful (mupdf which is now 1.0rc1 , sumatra pdf for windows, just to list a fews) but not as the previous ones.

I use acrobat (prof) as reference viewer from the editor and okular (kde windows version) on a second screen as handy constantly open one; I tried a few more but stuck to these two. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 09:31 +0200, luigi scarso wrote:

Every pdf for general use should be checked at least with the latest AdobeReader under windows, which is currently one of the best pdf viewer.

I think a better approach would be to consider Adobe's PDF specification as reference material, but not implementations of it that we cannot audit that may or may not have done so correctly. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com