Norbert Preining wrote:

Ok, thanks a lot. May I ask you something about copyright: For proper inclusion I really need to know the copyright not only of the files in cont-tmf, but aslo in the others, cont-ext, cont-fnt, cont-img.

The cows fonts (inside cont-tmf) are cc-by-nd. TeXLive doesn't like that, so perhaps the same is true for debian. Everything in (the current versions of) cont-ext, cont-fmt and cont-img is either GPLv2 or Public Domain.

Is there any chance to get a statement of them beign DFSG compatible? Otherwise I have to exclude some of it and put it into something like context-nonfree.

BTW, as you are also one of the luatex people, same problem exists for luatex which I am also packaging.

Please, please don't do that. The snapshots are bug-ridden and totally experimental. In this stage, we much prefer having only testers that know how to deal with unstable software. Greetings, Taco

Hi Taco! On Mit, 20 Dez 2006, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

The cows fonts (inside cont-tmf) are cc-by-nd. TeXLive doesn't like that, so perhaps the same is true for debian.

Ok.

Everything in (the current versions of) cont-ext, cont-fmt and cont-img is either GPLv2 or Public Domain.

Thanks for clarification.

...

BTW, as you are also one of the luatex people, same problem exists for luatex which I am also packaging.

Please, please don't do that. The snapshots are bug-ridden and totally experimental. In this stage, we much prefer having only testers that know how to deal with unstable software.

I know, I will call the package luatex-snapshot upload it to experimental, and people will get a warning about its usage. It is ok this way, not many people will get it from experimental anyway, but I want to have it around for testing, and better early adoption then late work. The point is that there are people who don't want to compile things but still are able to test stuff. For those luatex-snapshot pacakged will serve, too (and for me, because I don't want to have packages not under package management control on my system ;-) Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HASTINGS (pl.n.) Things said on the spur of the moment to explain to someone who comes into a room unexpectedly precisely what it is you are doing. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

On Mit, 20 Dez 2006, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

BTW, as you are also one of the luatex people, same problem exists for luatex which I am also packaging.

Please, please don't do that. The snapshots are bug-ridden and totally experimental. In this stage, we much prefer having only testers that know how to deal with unstable software.

I forgot to say: If you or the team have strong feelings *against* a packaged version, even if it is accompanied by big warnings etc, let us know, we can also forget about the packaging for now. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are of course many problems connected with life, of which some of the most popular are `Why are people born?' Why do they spend so much of the intervening time wearing digital watches?' --- The Book. --- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Hi Taco! On Mit, 20 Dez 2006, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

The cows fonts (inside cont-tmf) are cc-by-nd. TeXLive doesn't like that, so perhaps the same is true for debian.

find . -name \*cow\* does not give me anything with 2006.12.21, is this intended, or how are the fonts called ... Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TODBER (n.) One whose idea of a good time is to stand behind his front hedge and give surly nods to people he doesn't know. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

On Fre, 22 Dez 2006, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

find . -name \*cow\* does not give me anything with 2006.12.21, is this intended, or how are the fonts called ...

Try

find . -name koei\*

(koe == cow in dutch)

Ahh thanks, ok these fonts are gone. I will package anyway a context-nonfree (including the documentation) which also will carry the fonts (I hope I come around this!) Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOYNE (vb.) To beat an expert at a game of skill by playing so appallingly that none of his clever tactics or strategies are of any use to him. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

On Fre, 22 Dez 2006, Norbert Preining wrote:

New upstream, new debian package 2006.12.21-0.1

deb(-src) http://www.tug.org/texlive/Debian/ context/

Missing before I can upload (will upload) to Debian: - copyright file needs to be extended. I got the OK from Taco that everything but the cows fonts are GPLv2 or PD, those fonts I couldn't find for now, so it seems that it is ok. I have to write something up.

Those fonts are removed, it was the koei* files, they are not included in the .orig.tar.gz anymore, and will probably make it into -nonfree. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh no, not again. --- A bowl of petunias on it's way to certain death. --- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

On Friday 22 December 2006 02:29, Frank Küster wrote:

And, in particular, something which explains in 5 lines why one would want to use ConTeXt instead of LaTeX.

My 2 cents: Context has more coherent design, more control of page layout, more choice of font sizes, more direct control of pretty much everything. The automatic iterated construction of TOC, index, references, etc is nice too. The docs I build are subject to various formatting requirements laid down in law. They are feasible in both OpenOffice and Context but they are not feasible in Latex without a great deal of work. --Mike Bird

On 12/22/06, Norbert Preining wrote:

Hi all!

You know what is coming ...

First statement: I would prefer to have context in Debian proper, but if we cannot get anyway with this, putting all the stuff into the nonfree section might be an option, although it doesn't sound right.

Ok, I made a list of files in the for zips and took a look. Now it would be nice to have statements from the respective people about the license: Please see included stuff:

...

cont-fnt contains a huge bunch of vf/afm/tfm/map files. I assume that they were generated from some fontinst source, but this is missing.

Hans will know that better, but if you're talking about cont-fnt I assume that all these files were created with texfont. afm files contain a header like: Comment Converted at Fri Mar 18 12:57:24 2005 by ttf2afm from font file `arial.ttf' (I guess that texfont calls ttf2afm in that case) map files contain: % This file is generated by the TeXFont Perl script. ConTeXt doesn't use/need fontinst. I assume that all the files were created only once by running texfont script once per each font/encoding, most probably manually (although one could easily reconstruct the ten lines needed to do the conversion). But I don't know whether the fact that one needs a commercial font in order to create and use those supporting files matters or not.

Anyway, there is no accompanying readme or whatsoever besides the one for lucida.

-----------------------------------

cont-ext seems to be ok besides a few points: t-lettrine.tex does not have a license statement t-urwgaramond, type-urwgaramond, type-urwgothic: no license statement A different thing is that the sources of many doc are not included: ./doc/context/third/bnf/t-bnf.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/chromato/chromato-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/chromato/chromato-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/cmscbf/cmscbf-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/cmscbf/cmscbf-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/cmttbf/cmttbf-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/cmttbf/cmttbf-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/construction-plan/construction-plan-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/construction-plan/construction-plan-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/degrade/degrade-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/degrade/degrade-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/french/french-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/french/french-doc.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/typearea/typearea-demo.pdf NOSOURCE ./doc/context/third/typearea/typearea-doc.pdf NOSOURCE

So I would have to put them in something like context-nonfree (like other context documentation)

No. All those are all automatically generated from t-whatever.tex. For example, to get french-demo.pdf you need to run texexec --mode=demo t-french.tex and to get french-doc you need to run texexec --module t-french.tex But now my question: when I process the document with "--module" (with texexec.pl and pre-historic version of ConTeXt from april, if that's relevant ;), I get a whole-page MP graphic on the first page. How are the modulename-doc created? Are there any metapost-related settings disabled or has the behavior of texexec changed in the meantime? Mojca

Hi Norbert, I had to go through this for TeXLive proper as well. Can't you just ask Karl Berry cq. do what TexLive does (since it claims to be Debian-compatible)? Anyway, here is my list of remarks. I apologise beforehand if I sound a bit unfriendly here or there, I do not completely agree with DFSG (especially where it comes to requiring sources for documentation) and that tends to show through in my prose. Also, I am becoming worn out.

First cont-img.zip:

All images in cont-img are GPLv2.

cont-fnt contains a huge bunch of vf/afm/tfm/map files. I assume that they were generated from some fontinst source, but this is missing.

No, they were not, and there is no "missing source". The vf/tfm/map were generated using the texfont program, which does not use source files. The afms were created using ttf2afm, which uses ttfs as source.

Anyway, there is no accompanying readme or whatsoever besides the one for lucida.

All the files in cont-fnt are GPLv2.

cont-ext seems to be ok besides a few points: t-lettrine.tex does not have a license statement

Yes, it does. Top of file. PD. Perhaps you missed another then?

t-urwgaramond, type-urwgaramond,

Peter, can you add the license statement and re-upload? (it is GPL, according to Peter's own license statement on the contextgarden page for this module)

type-urwgothic: no license statement

PD, but I forgot to add the statement, sorry.

A different thing is that the sources of many doc are not included:

All the demo and doc files are generated by running texexec in "module" resp. "demo" mode on the actual macro sources, so the source is already included (just like .dtx files are the source of many latex packages' documentation)

Best would actually be to put a files MANIFEST.GPL, MANIFEST.PD, MANIFEST.CC-plus-ND into all the zip files. This way we could just forget about all this and ONLY if you add a file you have to update the MANIFEST.*.

Does this sound reasonable?

Sure, but only if you can promise this *will be* the end of it. Otherwise, it only adds even more of a hassle (it seems whatever we do, it is never quite enough).

I attach the MANFIEST.$zipfile to these email where I added some comments.

./doc/context/third/bnf/t-bnf.pdf NOSOURCE

Not so, because:

./tex/context/third/bnf/t-bnf.tex

this is the source.

./doc/context/third/lettrine/W.pdf source missing

It is an image. If it would make you feel better, I can convert it to png format, but then I would have to include the pdf as the source of the png, wouldn't I? ;-)

./doc/context/document/general/manuals/tiptrick.pdf NOSOURCE

Do you prefer to have no file at all? Or is NOSOURCE better than nothing? Consider that if these PDF documents were created using InDesign, there would not even exist a source, anywhere. From the entire list of pdfs, I believe this is the only one that really does not have a source included where there could reasonably be expected to be a source avaible somewhere.

CC-plus-ND the following: ./doc/fonts/hoekwater/koeieletters/koeieletters.rme

"Anything starting with koei" -> CC-ND is correct (like you said in another message). There was one in this list by mistake:

./fonts/map/pdftex/context/original-adobe-euro.map

that should be GPL. Best, Taco

Norbert Preining wrote:

.... if I, too, don't agree about the documentation stuff. In fact I agree half-way: I want to have the source code, even if some commercial fonts are missing etc and would still consider this DFSG free. In fact I started a discussion about it some time ago, since I believe it is better to have (as an example): fontinstallationguide.tex fontinstallationguide.pdf where the pdf contains some commercial fonts. The user still has the source code, can do anything with it, AND has a beautiful/readable/whatever document for printing.

I am often missing some "common sense" in these discussion, but OTOH I understand that on the larger scale of a whole distribution this is something a bit more complicated.

When we have time, we put manual source code in the public svn repos at one of our company servers which are mirrored by taco; one problem is that i often use commercial fonts (ones i recently had to use in projects) in order to get away from this 'yet another tex look'. Sometimes i can define fallbacks but not always. The same is true for some graphics (one reason for not putting all mp code i write online is that i don't want them to be ripped off simply because they are part of the context look and feel); this means that the all-source-available principle cannot be met and therefore they will not be redistributed which is a pitty for users I hope that you manage to get that discussions rolling, since it's a pitty that manuals are that restricted. I also wonder if it means that 'a source should be processable'. Btw, what is the source of an html page (or makes the fact that it's readable it a source); i'm pretty sure that much in the open source domain contains generated docs with the real source missing (say an xml file and an xslt script) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Taco Hoekwater wrote:

No, they were not, and there is no "missing source". The vf/tfm/map were generated using the texfont program, which does not use source files. The afms were created using ttf2afm, which uses ttfs as source.

concerning vf tfm and map files: in most cases they are kind of derived works; i think that most fonts (also commercial) permits making such files else no app would work with them; i do hav ea few (commercial) fonts on my machine with real weird and strict licences and i never put stuff in zips for them.

Do you prefer to have no file at all? Or is NOSOURCE better than nothing? Consider that if these PDF documents were created using InDesign, there would not even exist a source, anywhere.

indeed; the same is true for for instance the cow fonts .. including sources would add some 750 meg image scans (from originals drawn by duane) and quite some fontforge stuff as well; well, in a sense fonts are special anyway ... the source is the pen and paper of the author

From the entire list of pdfs, I believe this is the only one that really does not have a source included where there could reasonably be expected to be a source avaible somewhere.

in context there can be pdf files that are generated as sub processes (think of images of examples in the source); in such case they can only be generated when runtime processing is enabled Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Frank Küster wrote:

And, in particular, something which explains in 5 lines why one would want to use ConTeXt instead of LaTeX.

The ConTeXt FAQ answers this question. The first one is a complete explanation by Brooks Moses on c.t.t. while the second is a 5 line explanation by Berend de Boer in LaTeX in proper ConTeXt. What are the differences between ConTeXt and LaTeX? http://wiki.contextgarden.net/FAQ#What_are_the_differences_between_ConTeXt_a... What are the advantages of ConTeXt over LaTeX? http://wiki.contextgarden.net/FAQ#What_are_the_advantages_of_ConTeXt_over_La... Aditya

On Friday 22 December 2006 08:18, Norbert Preining wrote:

The main difference between ConTeXt and LaTeX lies in the fact that LaTeX was created with the idea of separating content and presentation to such an extent that the typical author would write their content and then use a style file created by someone else to provide the visual presentation. . ConTeXt, on the other hand, retained the idea of separating content and presentation, but was created with the idea of being used for books, where each book tends to have a different layout, and so the expected "end user" is the person doing all the layout. Thus, it's designed to provide a vast amount of flexibility for layout in a way that can be fairly easily defined without needing to write a package

Since one can move one's layout into a package in a few seconds and then include that package into a document, I think this somewhat misses the mark. Latexstualists may disagree but I think the essence is that Context gives more control and makes it easier to create new layouts. Whether or not those new layouts are in a document file or a separate package is not relevant. Nor is the original purpose for which Context was created relevant, as both Latex and Context are used for a lot more than math papers and books. --Mike Bird

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Sanjoy Mahajan wrote:

...

Latexstualists may disagree but I think the essence is that Context gives more control and makes it easier to create new layouts.

Also the ConTeXt parts are more integrated than the LaTeX packages are -- think of the discussions/comments about what order LaTeX packages must be loaded. For example, the hyperref manual says to load it last "to give it a fighting chance of not being over-written, since its job is to redefine many LaTeX commands."

And ConText is also an example of the free-software philosophy of "release often", sometimes twice a day!

Here is my attempt to integrate everything said here with the UK TeX FAQ entry and the wikipedia entry of ConTeXt, without pointing out all the bad things about LaTeX. Everything said and done, LaTeX is much better than Word Processors ;) ConTeXt is a document preparation system based on the TeX typesetting system. It was designed with the same general-purpose aims as LaTeX, but being younger reflects much more recent thinking about the structure of the markup, is more modular in its conception, and more monolithic in its building. ConTeXt gives more control to the "end user" and makes it easier to create new layout without learning TeX macro language. ConTeXt is consistent in its design, and does not suffer from the "package clashes" in LaTeX. ConTeXt also integrates MetaFun which is a superset of MetaPost and a powerful system for vector graphics. Metafun can be used as a stand alone product, but its strength lies in the ability to enhance the document layout with highly accurate graphic elements. ConTeXt allows the users to use markup in different languages. Markup in English, Dutch, German, French and Italian is supported at present. ConTeXt allows the user to use different engines (pdftex, XeTeX, aleph?, luatex?) without changing the user interface. ConText is developed at a fast pace and is also an example of the free-software philosophy of "release often", sometimes twice a day! Aditya

Here is Aditya's writeup with a few edits by this Mahajan. The part that might have been unclear to someone reading it for the first time is how ConTeXt can be modular yet monolithic: It was designed with the same general-purpose aims as LaTeX, but being younger reflects much more recent thinking about the structure of the markup, is more modular in its conception, and more monolithic in its building. So I shortened that bit in the version below. Plus I added a bit about color and hyperlinks, and I slightly softened the package clash statement about LaTeX -- as Aditya says, LaTeX is orders of magnitude better than a word processor, so let's be generous toward an ally in the cause. -Sanjoy ConTeXt is a document-production system based on the TeX typesetting system. It was designed with the same aims as LaTeX but, being newer, reflects more recent thinking about document markup and is more unified in its design. It includes extensive support for colors, hyperlinks, presentations, figure-text integration, and conditional compilation. ConTeXt gives extensive formatting control to the end user and makes it easy to create new layouts and styles without learning the TeX macro language. ConTeXt's unified design averts the package clashes that can happen with LaTeX. ConTeXt also integrates MetaFun, a superset of MetaPost and a powerful system for vector graphics. MetaFun can be used as a stand-alone system to produce figures, but its strength lies in enhancing ConTeXt documents with accurate graphic elements. ConTeXt allows the users to use formatting commands in English, Dutch, German, French, or Italian, and to use different typesetting engines (PDFTeX, XeTeX, Aleph, and soon LuaTeX) without changing the user interface. ConText is developed rapidly, has a friendly user community, and illustrates the free-software philosophy of "release often", sometimes twice a day!

Idris (and all), Thanks, that's a very helpful contrast between LaTeX and ConTeXt. So how about: ================================================== ConTeXt is a document-production system based, like LaTeX, on the TeX typesetting system. Whereas LaTeX insulates the writer from typographical details, ConTeXt takes a complementary approach by providing structured interfaces for handling typography, including extensive support for colors, backgrounds, hyperlinks, presentations, figure-text integration, and conditional compilation. It gives the user extensive control over formatting while making it easy to create new layouts and styles without learning the TeX macro language. ConTeXt's unified design averts the package clashes that can happen with LaTeX. ConTeXt also integrates MetaFun, a superset of MetaPost and a powerful system for vector graphics. MetaFun can be used as a stand-alone system to produce figures, but its strength lies in enhancing ConTeXt documents with accurate graphic elements. ConTeXt allows the users to use formatting commands in English, Dutch, German, French, or Italian, and to use different typesetting engines (PDFTeX, XeTeX, Aleph, and soon LuaTeX) without changing the user interface. ConText is developed rapidly, has a friendly user community, and illustrates the free-software philosophy of "release often", sometimes twice a day! ================================================== -Sanjoy `Not all who wander are lost.' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

On 2006 Dec 24, at 4:40 AM, Hans van der Meer indited:

...

ConText is developed rapidly, ... and illustrates the free- software philosophy of "release often", >>>> sometimes twice a day! <<<< (<< my emphasis here, hvdm) I wouldn't stress that fact in this manner. And at the least advice to rephrase this. From the formulation used here, people could get

On Dec 24, 2006, at 0:21, Sanjoy Mahajan wrote: the impression that ConTeXt is an extremely instable product and for that reason refrain from using it. That would be a pity.

That was definitely the impression I had... I've just recently joined this list as part of a low-key "I wonder if I'd be happier using ConTeXt rather than fighting LaTeX" evaluation. That Gerben Wierda's i-Installer automatically processes ConTeXt updates doesn't hurt either. :-) Thanks for the clarification! --D'gou

Hans van der Meer wrote:

On Dec 24, 2006, at 0:21, Sanjoy Mahajan wrote:

...

ConText is developed rapidly, ... and illustrates the free- software philosophy of "release often", >>>> sometimes twice a day! <<<< (<< my emphasis here, hvdm)

I wouldn't stress that fact in this manner. And at the least advice to rephrase this. From the formulation used here, people could get the impression that ConTeXt is an extremely instable product and for that reason refrain from using it. That would be a pity.

the reason for updating current instead of beta has a few reasons (1) it's easier for me to update servers using ctxtools --update and (2) we near the tex live code freeze, after that we will probably go beta again, which (3) will also update frequently because taco and i are actively working on luatex (mkiv) code which demands mkii/mkiv code splitting Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Sanjoy! On Fre, 22 Dez 2006, Sanjoy Mahajan wrote:

...

- man pages for all the funny applications ... Or only one for texmfstart, but this would be a bit of cheating ...

For the November 2006 TeXLive code freeze, I wrote from scratch or revised several ConTeXt manpages -- including a few originally "written for the Debian system", so one good turn deserves another: attached is the .tgz file (and its .zip equivalent) that I sent Karl Berry.

Thanks a lot, installed them. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YONKERS (n.) (Rare.) The combined thrill of pain and shame when being caught in public plucking your nostril-hairs and stuffing them into your side-pocket. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff