Re: [NTG-context] Position of prime for derivatives

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

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On 6/4/2017 11:06 PM, Otared Kavian wrote:

...

Hi Mikael,

Indeed your observation is correct, but using \over instead of \frac yields the correct behavior. Please try the following sample:

%%% begin derivatives-prime-4.tex \setupbodyfont[lucidaot]

\starttext

Compare the position of the prime sign in $f'/g$ in these two expressions: the first one using \type{{... \over ...}} \startformula \left({f \over g}\right)' = {f' \over g} - {f \over g^2}g' \stopformula (which yields a correct position of the prime for $f'$ in $f'/g$), and the second using \type{\frac{...}{...}} \startformula \left(\frac{f}{g} \right)' = \frac{f'}{g} - \frac{f}{g^2} g' \stopformula which yields a prime sign for $f'$ a little bit lower.

\stoptext %%% end derivatives-prime-4.tex

The problem with primes is that it's a real mess, conceptually as well as in fonts.

- we need to deal with not only one prime but also with double, tripple and quadruple ones and they need to become proper unicode symbols too

- fonts have one, two or three sizes, often inconsistent and with funny dimensions, onlyt the text size can be trusted

- we cannot use prime as nuclues as it can be combined with a subscript

- but it isn't designed as a script symbol and is already raised (somewhat)

- so we have to deal with a good old tex / fonts / plain inheritance, unicode but also want to avoid active character and parsing mess etc.

I tried several approaches and it's hard to come up with a general solution that suits all fonts.

Now, the bad is that when we use a superscript with a smashed virtual characters we end up in script choice mess with primes being one step too small.

So, I decided to follow a different route and extend luatex with a sizeless super/subscript feature so that we can handle such weird cases (there might be more).

This also means that the primes get larger. I only use the text size prime and scale that down for the other sizes i.e. no stty for primes as they are such a mess) but we can live with that.

The good news is that it gets better but the bad news is that you have to wait till we release luatex 1.0.5 (planned for the ctx meeting but we might do an intermediate garden release anyway).

btw, with \frac you get cramped styles and these have different positioning. Such is life.

Hans

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Again, thanks.

In 2017.06.06 13:22 something is still not correct.

The input file

\startTEXpage[offset=3pt] $f'(x)\hat{f}'(x)$ \stopTEXpage

gives the attached output. The prime of f'(x) looks wrong, the one of \hat{f}'(x) looks correct.

/Mikael

I was too quick. The example \setupbodyfont[lucidaot,10pt] \setupmathematics[stylealternative={calligraphic}]% to get the normal math lower case italic \startTEXpage[offset=3pt] $f'(x)\hat{f}'(x)$ \stopTEXpage gives bad result in both cases. The first one with wrong size and wrong vertical placement, the second one only with wrong vertical placement (that was not obvious to me for latin modern). /Mikael