Khaled Hosny wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean here.
I meant the wrong question is being asked here, they didn't have to choose between embed and extend, simply because only embed is the viable choice according to project's goal. IMHO, the question would be if LuaTeX is interested in making the engine available as shared library (or Lua extension) in the future or not, as this is a completely different goal than what they are trying to do right now.
Thank you, Khaled, for this clarification. My understanding of the situation is a little different. First some background. If one wants to provide a service (to Lua scripts) then one has to write an extension (to Lua). If one want to write an application, one can go either way (either embed or extend). According to http://www.luatex.org, the "main objective is to provide an open and configurable variant of TeX while at the same time offering downward compatibility." I don't see anything here that leads them to prefer embed over extend. On the page http://www.luatex.org/roadmap/ I see "allow Lua callbacks for file searching" "Allow Lua scripts to control [...] font loading etc." and so forth. These might be situations where embed would be preferred to extend, but I'm not sure either way. [snip]
I think it would also be great to have a 'instant preview' front end to TeX.
I'm too looking forward for some thing like that, I even have some idea that would be best implemented if we had such feature, and I know there are many potentials for such extension.
Thank you for your encouragement and interest. I really think this sort of thing is a vital part of our future (along with something better than the TeX macro language). -- Jonathan
Jonathan Fine wrote:
According to http://www.luatex.org, the "main objective is to provide an open and configurable variant of TeX while at the same time offering downward compatibility." I don't see anything here that leads them to prefer embed over extend.
these are you terms and definitions (and by now i've lost track of what embed vs extend is anyway) and i see no reason why we (as team) should prefer some kind of tagging (or discuss our preferences for whatever) ... just wait till 2012 and beyond and see which of your tags you can apply then
On the page http://www.luatex.org/roadmap/ I see "allow Lua callbacks for file searching" "Allow Lua scripts to control [...] font loading etc." and so forth. These might be situations where embed would be preferred to extend, but I'm not sure either way.
i don't know, but what i do know is that by embedding lua we could extend tex's file io subsystem so again we have no preference ... we're just doing something that suits our needs (which might differe from your needs for tagging)
I think it would also be great to have a 'instant preview' front end to TeX.
I'm too looking forward for some thing like that, I even have some idea that would be best implemented if we had such feature, and I know there are many potentials for such extension.
Thank you for your encouragement and interest. I really think this sort of thing is a vital part of our future (along with something better than the TeX macro language).
because in our daily work and usage we're talking of many-page documents it will never be instant and for special tasks like high end arabic (which is what we're playing with now) it's even dead slow but who cares as it's the quality that matters; the luatex project aims at a full blown tex, not some small subsystem; at bachotek there was a talk about making a python tex library and we were told that less than 600 lines of tex the program were needed to do the job ... maybe you should focus on that approach then and forget about further embed/extend discusions on thsi forum as they are of no importance to the luatex project end of thread ... second attempt: you asked us what it is embed or extend and by now it should be clear that we're not going to make a choice that makes you happy (and haunts us the coming years) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Hans You wrote:
end of thread ... second attempt: you asked us what it is embed or extend and by now it should be clear that we're not going to make a choice that makes you happy (and haunts us the coming years)
I do not wish to argue with you. Arguments are unproductive (although sometimes difficult to avoid). I apologise for anything I've said that might have taken us from discussion and into argument. You and I disagree on the relative merits of embed and extend, and also on the importance of providing typesetting as a service. These questions are of great importance to our community. Perhaps one day soon, and perhaps somewhere else, we will have a productive discussion about them. Reluctantly, I agree with you that this discussion will not take place here and now. with best regards Jonathan
Jonathan Fine
Dear Hans
You wrote:
end of thread ... second attempt: you asked us what it is embed or extend and by now it should be clear that we're not going to make a choice that makes you happy (and haunts us the coming years)
I do not wish to argue with you. Arguments are unproductive (although sometimes difficult to avoid). I apologise for anything I've said that might have taken us from discussion and into argument.
You and I disagree on the relative merits of embed and extend, and also on the importance of providing typesetting as a service.
These questions are of great importance to our community.
Not really. Lua's coroutines allow interchanging them in effect. You simply choose to ignore other people's arguments. That's not what a "discussion" is supposed to be about. -- David Kastrup
Hello David You wrote:
You and I disagree on the relative merits of embed and extend, and also on the importance of providing typesetting as a service.
These questions are of great importance to our community.
Not really. Lua's coroutines allow interchanging them in effect. You simply choose to ignore other people's arguments. That's not what a "discussion" is supposed to be about.
I have read your message and understand it. You make an interesting point. Here and now, as I said in my message, is not a suitable time for me to respond to what you say. (Hans, twice, has tried to close this thread). I suggest, therefore, that you repost your statement somewhere else, such as comp.text.tex, or wait until discussion can be reopened here. I'm sorry that this might give the impression that I am ignoring what you say. I hope that this thread is now closed. -- Jonathan
participants (3)
-
David Kastrup -
Hans Hagen -
Jonathan Fine