New Debian packages

Norbert Preining

23 Jan 2007 23 Jan '07

12:05 p.m.

Hi all! Hi Florent! I have uploaded new context packages 2007.01.23-1 BUT ONLY TO THE tug.org server!! Not to Debian till now. Why? I am a bit nervous with respect to this change in 2007.01.18: Switch to latin modern math fonts. If this gives you trouble, you have to update your latin modern font package, see CTAN Well. This is bad. Simply bad. Without backward compatibility I will not upload this to Debian. I cannot, because Debian currently has the lmodern fonts 1.foobar, but without the math fonts. I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?). So to be more specific: Is this an *absolute* dependency, ie setting math in context now *only* works with the lmodern math fonts installed? If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUDBY A nipple clearly defined through flimsy or wet material. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

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Florent Rougon

23 Jan 23 Jan

12:59 p.m.

Hi, Norbert Preining wrote:

...

I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?).

I'm not planning to upload a new lmodern version before etch is released. First, it's too late to test such an update; second, I'm very busy these days...

...

If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

In fact, there may be a possibility: if it's enough to only *add* fonts that were previoulsy absent (presumably, those listed in that new lm-math.map file), then it can be acceptable (if done carefully). We would have to either create a new .tar.gz with both LM 1.00 and the new fonts from the latest LM release, or uuencode the new files in the .diff.gz... -- Florent

Hans Hagen

24 Jan 24 Jan

6:28 a.m.

Florent Rougon wrote:

...

Hi,

Norbert Preining wrote:

...
I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?).

I'm not planning to upload a new lmodern version before etch is released. First, it's too late to test such an update; second, I'm very busy these days...

...
If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

In fact, there may be a possibility: if it's enough to only *add* fonts that were previoulsy absent (presumably, those listed in that new lm-math.map file), then it can be acceptable (if done carefully).

the file set is rather stable so you can just overwrite (unzip) the new archives; nothing needs to be deleted

...

We would have to either create a new .tar.gz with both LM 1.00 and the new fonts from the latest LM release, or uuencode the new files in the ..diff.gz...

Frank Küster

7:10 a.m.

Hans Hagen wrote:

...

Florent Rougon wrote:

...
Hi,

Norbert Preining wrote:

...
I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?).

I'm not planning to upload a new lmodern version before etch is released. First, it's too late to test such an update; second, I'm very busy these days...

...
If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

In fact, there may be a possibility: if it's enough to only *add* fonts that were previoulsy absent (presumably, those listed in that new lm-math.map file), then it can be acceptable (if done carefully).

the file set is rather stable so you can just overwrite (unzip) the new archives; nothing needs to be deleted

No, changing any existing files is not an option at this point in Debian's release cycle. Regards, Frank -- Dr. Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Hans Hagen

11:32 a.m.

Frank � wrote:

...

Hans Hagen wrote:

...
Florent Rougon wrote:

...
Hi,

Norbert Preining wrote:

...
I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?).

I'm not planning to upload a new lmodern version before etch is released. First, it's too late to test such an update; second, I'm very busy these days...

...
If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

In fact, there may be a possibility: if it's enough to only *add* fonts that were previoulsy absent (presumably, those listed in that new lm-math.map file), then it can be acceptable (if done carefully).

the file set is rather stable so you can just overwrite (unzip) the new archives; nothing needs to be deleted

No, changing any existing files is not an option at this point in Debian's release cycle.

ok; but if you just add the math fonts (type 1) also make sure that you add lm-math.map (this file also lists the fonts we're dealing with) Hans -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Taco Hoekwater

23 Jan 23 Jan

2:01 p.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi all! Hi Florent!

I have uploaded new context packages 2007.01.23-1 BUT ONLY TO THE tug.org server!! Not to Debian till now.

...

I don't know whether Florent is planning to do an upload of lmodern with the new math fonts included (Florent?).

So to be more specific: Is this an *absolute* dependency, ie setting math in context now *only* works with the lmodern math fonts installed?

Yes, just like the change to pdftex 1.40 in 2007.01.12 was absolute. This is at least in part why TL will run 2007.01.12, and I will no update it any more, as well as why we have a fullblown repository of old releases. Context is very often at the very edge of developments. That is one reason why we have ctxtools --update and ConTexT has its own distribution and release system.

...

If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

The latin modern math fonts have been on ctan for some time now (they were already in the previous release), but I doubt many people have then installed just yet. The again, if ConTeXt didn't require them, fewer people *would* install them. ;-) Looks like the debian users will have to wait out for a bit. Best, Taco

Norbert Preining

2:28 p.m.

Hi Taco! On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

Yes, just like the change to pdftex 1.40 in 2007.01.12 was absolute.

I don't agree. I could process several medium complicated test cases I have collected over the time with pdfetex 1.30.5 from TL2005 (debian packages) with my context packages for 2007.01.12. The only point was that is was necessary to add the pdfetex -> pdftex symlink, otherwise everything worked without problem. So I *don't see that this was an *absolute* move.

...

This is at least in part why TL will run 2007.01.12, and I will no update it any more, as well as why we have a fullblown repository of old releases.

But doesn't TL2007 *inlcude* the lm-math fonts???? Please reconsider this!

...

...
If yes, then sorry for the Debian using guys, but you have to wait until we have the new lmodern in Debian.

The latin modern math fonts have been on ctan for some time now (they were already in the previous release), but I doubt many people have then installed just yet. The again, if ConTeXt didn't require them, fewer people *would* install them. ;-)

Looks like the debian users will have to wait out for a bit.

We are discussing this with Florent ... Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BOOTHBY GRAFFOE 1. The man in the pub who slaps people on the back as if they were old friends, when in fact he has no friends, largely on account of this habit. 2. Any story told by Robert Morley on chat shows. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

Taco Hoekwater

3 p.m.

Hi Norbert, Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi Taco!

On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...
Yes, just like the change to pdftex 1.40 in 2007.01.12 was absolute.

I don't agree. I could process several medium complicated test cases I have collected over the time with pdfetex 1.30.5 from TL2005 (debian packages) with my context packages for 2007.01.12.

The only point was that is was necessary to add the pdfetex -> pdftex symlink, otherwise everything worked without problem.

So I *don't see that this was an *absolute* move.

Of course you could add a set of font synonyms to cont-usr.tex or even create symlinks like from cmsy10.tfm to lmsy10.tfm. But you know that no 'ordinary' user will know what to do, and such hacks are probably a bad idea for such users anyway, because it will come back to haunt them next year or the year after.

...

...
This is at least in part why TL will run 2007.01.12, and I will no update it any more, as well as why we have a fullblown repository of old releases.

But doesn't TL2007 *inlcude* the lm-math fonts???? Please reconsider this!

At this point, I will not touch TL any more, except for urgent bugfixes. Staszek added the new latin modern at the very last moment, and I do not want to risk having a completely bodged system on TeXLive like we have had in some previous years. In fact, I still cannot quite believe that this release is going to work out ok. Perhaps Hans can be convinced to add a backward-compatibily switch for the normal context releases (>2007.01.23), but that is not upto me. Best wishes, Taco

Norbert Preining

3:19 p.m.

Hi Taco, hi Hans! On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

At this point, I will not touch TL any more, except for urgent bugfixes. Staszek added the new latin modern at the very last

Ok with me.

...

In fact, I still cannot quite believe that this release is going to work out ok.

It will !!!

...

Perhaps Hans can be convinced to add a backward-compatibily switch for the normal context releases (>2007.01.23), but that is not upto me.

Hmm, after a quick look it seems not too complicated, adding a file existence test in type-map.tex before loading lm-math.map. But it is up to Hans ... hi?! If you don't want to include it into official versions, could you at least provide a hint what to add/patch so that it uses the cm fonts for math ...? Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PELUTHO (n.) A South American ball game. The balls are whacked against a brick wall with a stout wooden bat until the prisoner confesses. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

Norbert Preining

3:33 p.m.

On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Norbert Preining wrote:

...

...
Perhaps Hans can be convinced to add a backward-compatibily switch for the normal context releases (>2007.01.23), but that is not upto me.

Hmm, after a quick look it seems not too complicated, adding a file existence test in type-map.tex before loading lm-math.map.

Aemm, I could compile all my test cases even without lm-math fonts available (I am using the texlive 2005 Debian packages). The log files give me: ... ... so it seems that there is already some backward compatibility??? What do I miss??? Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TORLUNDY (n.) Narrow but thickly grimed strip of floor between the fridge and the sink unit in the kitchen of a rented flat. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

Taco Hoekwater

24 Jan 24 Jan

1:34 a.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Norbert Preining wrote:

...
...
Perhaps Hans can be convinced to add a backward-compatibily switch for the normal context releases (>2007.01.23), but that is not upto me.

Hmm, after a quick look it seems not too complicated, adding a file existence test in type-map.tex before loading lm-math.map.

Aemm, I could compile all my test cases even without lm-math fonts available (I am using the texlive 2005 Debian packages).

The log files give me: ... ... so it seems that there is already some backward compatibility???

What do I miss???

You probably have something extra (or a file from an older context release) that is read instead of the one from the latest context. My tests all include etc. Best, Taco

Norbert Preining

2 Feb 2 Feb

9:57 a.m.

Hi all! Just to recap: Should I upload new context package to Debian, as it asks unconditionally for lm math fonts. On Mit, 24 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...

...
Aemm, I could compile all my test cases even without lm-math fonts available (I am using the texlive 2005 Debian packages).

You probably have something extra (or a file from an older context release) that is read instead of the one from the latest context.

My tests all include etc.

Ok, I got it. Sorry for missing this: The point is that Debian has lmodern 1.00 installed, which seems to include the math fonts. Do you know, have there been important changes between 1.00 and 1.010 concerning this stuff? And if not, we could also think about uploading another package for lmodern to Debian, but this is for Florent. If not, then I just upload and add a dependency on lmodern >= 1.00 which should be enough. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARTHUR What is an Algolian Zylatburger anyway? FORD They're a kind of meatburger made from the most unpleasant parts of a creature well known for its total lack of any pleasant parts. ARTHUR So you mean that the Universe does actually end not with a bang but with a Wimpy? --- Cut dialogue from Fit the Fifth. --- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Taco Hoekwater

11:11 a.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi all!

Just to recap: Should I upload new context package to Debian, as it asks unconditionally for lm math fonts.

On Mit, 24 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...
...
Aemm, I could compile all my test cases even without lm-math fonts available (I am using the texlive 2005 Debian packages).

You probably have something extra (or a file from an older context release) that is read instead of the one from the latest context.

My tests all include etc.

Ok, I got it. Sorry for missing this: The point is that Debian has lmodern 1.00 installed, which seems to include the math fonts.

Do you know, have there been important changes between 1.00 and 1.010 concerning this stuff? And if not, we could also think about uploading another package for lmodern to Debian, but this is for Florent.

No big changes that I know of. Best, Taco

Mike Bird

12:51 p.m.

On Friday 02 February 2007 08:57, Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Just to recap: Should I upload new context package to Debian, as it asks unconditionally for lm math fonts.

Norbert, Given the various font handling problems reported with the newer contexts, it would be unfortunate if the Debian world were to lose context_2007.01.12.2-1_all.deb at this time. --Mike Bird

Norbert Preining

12:54 p.m.

On Fre, 02 Feb 2007, Mike Bird wrote:

...

Given the various font handling problems reported with the newer contexts, it would be unfortunate if the Debian world were to lose context_2007.01.12.2-1_all.deb at this time.

Aehmm ... did I miss something? I didn't hear about this problems. Anyway too late ... you can always get it at tug.org Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DRAFFAN (n.) An infuriating person who always manages to look much more dashing that anyone else by turning up unshaven and hangover at a formal party. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

Taco Hoekwater

24 Jan 24 Jan

1:40 a.m.

(I dropped the debian-related CCs) Norbert Preining wrote:

...

If you don't want to include it into official versions, could you at least provide a hint what to add/patch so that it uses the cm fonts for math ...?

type-enc.tex contains the following block. \starttypescript [math] [modern,latin-modern,computer-modern] \definefontsynonym [cmbsy5] [lmbsy5] \definefontsynonym [cmbsy7] [lmbsy7] \definefontsynonym [cmbsy10] [lmbsy10] \definefontsynonym [cmsy5] [lmsy5] \definefontsynonym [cmsy6] [lmsy6] \definefontsynonym [cmsy7] [lmsy7] \definefontsynonym [cmsy8] [lmsy8] \definefontsynonym [cmsy9] [lmsy9] \definefontsynonym [cmsy10] [lmsy10] \definefontsynonym [cmex10] [lmex10] \definefontsynonym [cmmi5] [lmmi5] \definefontsynonym [cmmi6] [lmmi6] \definefontsynonym [cmmi7] [lmmi7] \definefontsynonym [cmmi8] [lmmi8] \definefontsynonym [cmmi9] [lmmi9] \definefontsynonym [cmmi10] [lmmi10] \definefontsynonym [cmmi12] [lmmi12] \definefontsynonym [cmmib5] [lmmib5] \definefontsynonym [cmmib7] [lmmib7] \definefontsynonym [cmmib10] [lmmib10] \stoptypescript this is the key point: these synonyms instruct context to replace all the occurences of "cmsy10" in type-siz.tex with "lmsy10" (etc.) Taco

Hans Hagen

6:25 a.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi Taco, hi Hans!

On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...
At this point, I will not touch TL any more, except for urgent bugfixes. Staszek added the new latin modern at the very last

Ok with me.

...
In fact, I still cannot quite believe that this release is going to work out ok.

It will !!!

...
Perhaps Hans can be convinced to add a backward-compatibily switch for the normal context releases (>2007.01.23), but that is not upto me.

Hmm, after a quick look it seems not too complicated, adding a file existence test in type-map.tex before loading lm-math.map.

the problem is that map files live in map file space and not in tex file space ... as with tfm files, no robust test can be done (which is why we will move to xml variants that live in tex space) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Hans Hagen

6:22 a.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi Taco!

On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

...
Yes, just like the change to pdftex 1.40 in 2007.01.12 was absolute.

I don't agree. I could process several medium complicated test cases I have collected over the time with pdfetex 1.30.5 from TL2005 (debian packages) with my context packages for 2007.01.12.

The only point was that is was necessary to add the pdfetex -> pdftex symlink, otherwise everything worked without problem.

So I *don't see that this was an *absolute* move.

indeed, as long as one is able to sort out the binaries, context will work ok; at the macro level all versions of pdftex are supported, although ... once pdftex 1.40 is out for some period it makes sense to remove pre 1.40 support

...

But doesn't TL2007 *inlcude* the lm-math fonts???? Please reconsider this!

it does contain those fonts; the problem is that latex does to default to lm and if hartmut hadn't tested it, the related latex font packages would have been broken; the whole idea behind lm is that eventually crm, aer, plr, csr, vnr can go; just as with gyre fonts, the many variant can go ... less files, less problems

...

We are discussing this with Florent ...

good! one additional argument can be that the latest look the greatest Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Norbert Preining

7 a.m.

Hi Hans! On Mit, 24 Jan 2007, Hans Hagen wrote:

...

...
So I *don't see that this was an *absolute* move.

indeed, as long as one is able to sort out the binaries, context will work ok; at the macro level all versions of pdftex are supported, although ... once pdftex 1.40 is out for some period it makes sense to remove pre 1.40 support

This is good. Of course the compatibility cruft will be removed with TeX Live 2007 entering Debian, but only then.

...

good! one additional argument can be that the latest look the greatest

As said, not for etch. We will probably prepare and upload of experimental, and as soon as etch is released (hahaha, it seems all soo common to me, TeX Live, Debian, release problems ...) we can move the new lmodern to unstable (and new testing). Hans: One question: Do you have an idea why on my PC with texlive2005 Debian packages with lmodern 1.0, no additional stuff installed, but with the latest context, I can run a document and get the math right, with the cmr fonts. I thought the lmr MATH fonts are compulsory now? That was the whole discussion about? Ie, if the lmr math fonts are not found, does context automatically take the cmr math fonts? Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HASELBURY PLUCKNETT (n.) A mechanical device for cleaning combs invented during the industrial revolution at the same time as Arkwright's Spinning Jenny, but which didn't catch on in the same way. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

Hans Hagen

11:31 a.m.

Norbert Preining wrote:

...

Hi Hans!

On Mit, 24 Jan 2007, Hans Hagen wrote:

...
...
So I *don't see that this was an *absolute* move.

indeed, as long as one is able to sort out the binaries, context will work ok; at the macro level all versions of pdftex are supported, although ... once pdftex 1.40 is out for some period it makes sense to remove pre 1.40 support

This is good. Of course the compatibility cruft will be removed with TeX Live 2007 entering Debian, but only then.

...
good! one additional argument can be that the latest look the greatest

As said, not for etch. We will probably prepare and upload of experimental, and as soon as etch is released (hahaha, it seems all soo common to me, TeX Live, Debian, release problems ...) we can move the new lmodern to unstable (and new testing).

Hans: One question: Do you have an idea why on my PC with texlive2005 Debian packages with lmodern 1.0, no additional stuff installed, but with the latest context, I can run a document and get the math right, with the cmr fonts. I thought the lmr MATH fonts are compulsory now? That was the whole discussion about?

Ie, if the lmr math fonts are not found, does context automatically take the cmr math fonts?

it depends a bit of how a font is defined, using design sizes or using scaled 10pt; this morning i removed the latest traces of cm fonts in the definitions; the reasons for this are that the lm people want things to be used and tested (a few more chars in math) and so far context always was a decent testbed because users are willing to update (which is why latin modern has been the default font quite soon after it came available); of course the downside is that changes in filenames can be harmful (for some obscure reason halfway between the project tetex wanted another map naming scheme which is inconsistent with other 'modern' polish distributed fonts and it's for that reason that we still ship alternative map files (will be dropped after tex live 2007; maybe we will even drop mapfiles and move to font resources in xml format so that no further conflicts can arise (less files too)) so ... from now on we really need lm math fonts (interestin gis that these fonts have been around for a year and lm people wondered why no reports of usage came in; i only recently found out that they never made it into tetex cq. tex live probably because they were not mentioned in a an update script) anyhow ... keep in mind that the cmr10 now is rm-lmr10 i.e. rm-* named fonts are the real 7 bit replacements) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------

Frank Küster

7:12 a.m.

Hans Hagen wrote:

...

indeed, as long as one is able to sort out the binaries, context will work ok; at the macro level all versions of pdftex are supported, although ... once pdftex 1.40 is out for some period it makes sense to remove pre 1.40 support

Mind that it might take a while until all Unix-like systems have switched from teTeX to TeXlive, and until this is done, the pdfTeX from teTeX-3.0 will be abundant. Regards, Frank -- Dr. Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Norbert Preining

2 Feb 2 Feb

12:10 p.m.

Hi all! On Die, 23 Jan 2007, Norbert Preining wrote:

...

I have uploaded new context packages 2007.01.23-1 BUT ONLY TO THE tug.org server!! Not to Debian till now.

After clearing up the questions I had wrt the lm math fonts I have uploaded new -1 packages to the tug server AND to Debian. The only change is an added dependency on lmodern (>= 1.00) to get lm math fonts. So these packages work on Debian/sid. Best wishes Norbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena Debian Developer Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRECON That part of the toenail which is designed to snag on nylon sheets. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

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participants (6)

Florent Rougon
Frank Küster
Hans Hagen
Mike Bird
Norbert Preining
Taco Hoekwater