Hi all,
greetings from BachoTeX.
With Jean-Michel, we found out that there is the unsuitable setting for French nested quotation marks in lang-def.mkiv (TL 2018):
\c!leftquote=\leftguillemot, \c!rightquote=\rightguillemot,
After discussion (also with Damian) the better and most frequently used setting should be the following:
\c!leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, \c!rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote,
%%%%%% \installlanguage [\s!fr] [\c!spacing=\v!packed, \c!leftsentence=\emdash, \c!rightsentence=\emdash, \c!leftsubsentence=\emdash, \c!rightsubsentence=\emdash, \c!leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, \c!rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote, \c!leftquotation=\leftguillemot, \c!rightquotation=\rightguillemot, \c!date={\v!day:mnem,\v!space,\v!month,\v!space,\v!year}] %%%%%%
Would somebody check it and change it in newer versions?
The best,
Tomáš
I don’t know if that is correct, but clearly \quotation and \quote at first view seem strange to give the same result.
According to the Règles typographiques en usage à l’imprimerie nationale, p.51 :
Nota- Guillemets ouvrants et guillemets fermants ne doivent pas être employés les uns pour les autres. C’est ainsi que les citations de deuxième rang ne doivent jamais être marquées en début de ligne par des guillemets fermants, comme cela se pratique parfois fautivement. De même, on n’emploiera qu’exceptionnellement dans un texte en français les guillemets anglais ouvrants (“) et fermants (”).
So *only* exceptionally should \upperleftdoublesixquote and \upperrightdoubleninequote EVER be used. When I want them, I use {\en\quotation{…}} so as to specifically show what I am doing!
Longer quotations are to be set off from the text, i.e. with the equivalent of \startnarrower [left] … \stopnarrower and quotes within should use guillemots. Maybe this is just proper usage by the user, but I have always found the current ConTeXt definitions to be correct so that
\startquotation … \quote{} ou \startquote … \stopquote … \stopquotataion
is the proper coding, of course with \startquotation\stopquotation being defined to typeset a narrower paragraph.
So I disagree. Of course, a user is free to redefine these setups according to his or her own taste but should only do this \italic {en connaissance de cause}.
Alan
On 4May19, at 14:38, Tomas Hala tomas.hala@mendelu.cz wrote:
Hi all,
greetings from BachoTeX.
With Jean-Michel, we found out that there is the unsuitable setting for French nested quotation marks in lang-def.mkiv (TL 2018):
\c!leftquote=\leftguillemot, \c!rightquote=\rightguillemot,
After discussion (also with Damian) the better and most frequently used setting should be the following:
\c!leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, \c!rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote,
%%%%%% \installlanguage [\s!fr] [\c!spacing=\v!packed, \c!leftsentence=\emdash, \c!rightsentence=\emdash, \c!leftsubsentence=\emdash, \c!rightsubsentence=\emdash, \c!leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, \c!rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote, \c!leftquotation=\leftguillemot, \c!rightquotation=\rightguillemot, \c!date={\v!day:mnem,\v!space,\v!month,\v!space,\v!year}] %%%%%%
Would somebody check it and change it in newer versions?
The best,
Tomáš _______________________________________________ dev-context mailing list dev-context@ntg.nl https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/dev-context
-- Alan Braslau
5 mai 2019 02:03 "Alan Braslau" braslau.list@comcast.net a écrit:
I don’t know if that is correct, (...)
Dear all,
I'm still at BachoTeX, and will be back at next week's end. I'll answer at this time with precise references. So long!
J.-M.
5 mai 2019 02:03 "Alan Braslau" braslau.list@comcast.net a écrit:
I don’t know if that is correct, but clearly \quotation and \quote at first view seem strange to give the same result. (...)
First, happy new year!
Then I noticed this point, but I confess that it was not given high priority... Let us recall that the problem was related to second level quotations in French. Roughly speaking, do we have to write:
(i) Je me souviens avoir dit <<Pourquoi criez-vous "Au voleur !" Aurait-on volé votre manuel de ConTeXt ? >>
or:
(ii) Je me souviens avoir dit <<Pourquoi criez-vous <<Au voleur !>> Aurait-on volé votre manuel de ConTeXt ? >>
Among the typography manuals I know for French, the most complete explanation about this subject is given at:
Maurice Grévisse. "Le bon usage". Edition de 1988, §133, p. 185.
For a long time, (ii) was the only correct form, but reading such may be quite confusing. More and more often, English guillemets - "..." (or '...', less used) - are put for a quotation inside another quotation. My Grévisse book is not the last edition, but I think that this point has not been changed.
I think that (i) should be the default solution - as I told Tomas at BachoTeX - and some workaround should allow end-users to put (ii) into action if they would like to refer to a very old rule. Surprisingly, a very ancient rule is given by Chicago Manual of Style's 14th Edition: an opening guillemet should be put at each line beginning when the enclosed citation is running (§9.26). Our example would become:
Je me souviens avoir dit <<Pourquoi criez-vous <<Au <<voleur !>> Aurait-on volé votre manuel de ConTeXt ?>>
but this ridiculous use has disappeared within French modern publishing. A variant? The
Guide du typographe romand
(published at Lausanne) suggest to use 'simple guillemets' for enclosed quotations:
Je me souviens avoir dit <<Pourquoi criez-vous <Au voleur !> Aurait-on volé votre manuel de ConTeXt ?>>
To end up, if you difficultly understand this example in French:
I remember that I said: "Why did you shout 'Stop thief!' Has your ConTeXt manual being stolen?"
Yours sincerely,
J.-M.
-
Alan Braslau -
jmhuffle＠femto-st.fr -
Tomas Hala